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ephemere
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 Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:18 pm Post subject: Carol Brass 3C mouthpiece: good choice for a beginner? |
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Hello:
My 4th-grade daughter is going to take up the trumpet, so after some amount of research I ordered a Carol Brass CTR-5000L-YST-L horn for her. While I wait for it to arrive, my attention turns to mouthpieces.
The Carol Brass horn comes with a 3C mouthpiece. Is this a good choice for a complete beginner, or should I look elsewhere? I've read a few threads recommending things like a Bach 7C and a Yamaha 11B4. Mainly, I want something that's going to be easy (not frustrating) for a nine-year-old who has never played. I understand it may depend on the geometry of her mouth, but I'd love to get any feedback from you seasoned folks.
I should mention that I know a little bit about reed instruments and string instruments, but I'm completely unfamiliar with brass instruments.
Thanks! |
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zaferis
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Conventional rule of thumb will be to say that it's probably not the best choice - a touch on the big side (that is if Carol Brass mouthpiece numbers coincide with Bach specs - I don't know that for sure without looking it up)
If so, something smaller, more middle of the road is probably a better starting point. Bach 7C, Yamaha 11B4, etc
I will also add that I think the choice of trumpet is too big, or too pro, if you wiil.. yes, a decent trumpet for a developed player looking for a light-weight instrument. Not the best choice for a beginner.
I'd suggest holding onto that one - and renting a "beginner" kit for the next year +, until she developes some chops and knowledge of how to handle and care for a trumpet.
A very important piece of a rental program is the repair/upkeep.. with your new trumpet, those repairs (which there will be some) are going to be out of pocket.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, there absolutely no rule. I believe Maurice Andre started playing on a 1 1/2C and died playing on a 1 1/2C. Nakariakov and Harkan Hardenberger I think also both started on large-ish mouthpieces.
There are other players who started on very small pieces.
I would say that the Carol 3C will likely be fine, but if you really want to get something, I'd look to the Pickett Young Artist pieces.
http://www.pickettbrass.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107_108&products_id=1289 |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:32 am Post subject: 3 c mouthpiece |
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Once she gets playing, her instructor will tell her if the mouthpiece works for her. As a backup horn, I will consider buying her a used student cornet for practice.
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Without seeing her, it is a bit chancy to recommend a mouthpiece.
That said, here are some reasonable choices.
Bach 10 1/2C. Easy to play, nice sound and not big at all. The Bach 7C has a rather precise bite - read sharp - and has a rather deep cup.
The Bach 8, 8 1/2, and 9 series are hard to find, but are nice mouthpieces.
Schilke 7B4, 9C4, 10B4, and their 11.
Yamaha 11B and 11C4.
These manufacturers are easy to find/order (except the Bach 8,9, and 10sizes) and are not expensive at all.
The horn might be a bit of overkill for a beginner, but it certainly shouldn't hinder her. My 2 trumpet playing sons started on my old Bach 72/43 large bore and an old Bach 3C. That 3C was their choice over the dozens I had back then. Neither the horn nor the mouthpiece gave them any problem.
R. Tomasek |
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bach_again
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: | Without seeing her, it is a bit chancy to recommend a mouthpiece.
That said, here are some reasonable choices.
Bach 10 1/2C. Easy to play, nice sound and not big at all. The Bach 7C has a rather precise bite - read sharp - and has a rather deep cup.
The Bach 8, 8 1/2, and 9 series are hard to find, but are nice mouthpieces.
Schilke 7B4, 9C4, 10B4, and their 11.
Yamaha 11B and 11C4.
These manufacturers are easy to find/order (except the Bach 8,9, and 10sizes) and are not expensive at all.
The horn might be a bit of overkill for a beginner, but it certainly shouldn't hinder her. My 2 trumpet playing sons started on my old Bach 72/43 large bore and an old Bach 3C. That 3C was their choice over the dozens I had back then. Neither the horn nor the mouthpiece gave them any problem.
R. Tomasek |
Good advice!
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ephemere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses so far. Very helpful!
| zaferis wrote: | | yes, a decent trumpet for a developed player looking for a light-weight instrument. Not the best choice for a beginner. |
zaferis: If you remove all finances from consideration (price of trumpet, price of repairs, etc.), is there any other reason why a beginner should not start on a Carol Brass CTR-5000L-YST-L? (I completely understand your advice from a financial point of view.) |
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zaferis
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| ephemere wrote: | Thanks for the responses so far. Very helpful!
| zaferis wrote: | | yes, a decent trumpet for a developed player looking for a light-weight instrument. Not the best choice for a beginner. |
zaferis: If you remove all finances from consideration (price of trumpet, price of repairs, etc.), is there any other reason why a beginner should not start on a Carol Brass CTR-5000L-YST-L? (I completely understand your advice from a financial point of view.) |
you would be giving a young undeveloped child an instrument designed for a mature player that has worked for years (most likely) to play a brass instrument AND I believe that model is intended to be a commcercial setup (for loud, high energy use) - too much instrument for a beginner to handle - an open door for many frustrating hours - not the way to begin.
Beyond that, all students and most parents have no clue regarding care for a trumpet - you will invevitably have to repair something and quite possibly to a point that the value of that instrument as a "pro" horn will be lost. (i.e. once you crumple a bell, even though repaired, is not the same to an advanced player.) Being a light weight design amplifies that concern.
You will undoubtedly hear/read comments about "so and so" that started on a 3C or bigger and how well that player did - those masters would have been masters anyway - the rest of us benefit from the conventions (starting with a mid-sized mouthpiece... I've started hundreds of trumpet students - only a rare handfull have I felt would benefit from a larger mouthpiece until their High School years)
Starting in mid-ground benefits most and holds back none.. whereas starting in or nearer the extreme has possibility of negative impact, which one may not realize until late in his/her trumpet journey
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | | ephemere wrote: | Thanks for the responses so far. Very helpful!
| zaferis wrote: | | yes, a decent trumpet for a developed player looking for a light-weight instrument. Not the best choice for a beginner. |
zaferis: If you remove all finances from consideration (price of trumpet, price of repairs, etc.), is there any other reason why a beginner should not start on a Carol Brass CTR-5000L-YST-L? (I completely understand your advice from a financial point of view.) |
you would be giving a young undeveloped child an instrument designed for a mature player that has worked for years (most likely) to play a brass instrument AND I believe that model is intended to be a commcercial setup (for loud, high energy use) - too much instrument for a beginner to handle - an open door for many frustrating hours - not the way to begin.
Beyond that, all students and most parents have no clue regarding care for a trumpet - you will invevitably have to repair something and quite possibly to a point that the value of that instrument as a "pro" horn will be lost. (i.e. once you crumple a bell, even though repaired, is not the same to an advanced player.) Being a light weight design amplifies that concern.
You will undoubtedly hear/read comments about "so and so" that started on a 3C or bigger and how well that player did - those masters would have been masters anyway - the rest of us benefit from the conventions (starting with a mid-sized mouthpiece... I've started hundreds of trumpet students - only a rare handfull have I felt would benefit from a larger mouthpiece until their High School years)
Starting in mid-ground benefits most and holds back none.. whereas starting in or nearer the extreme has possibility of negative impact, which one may not realize until late in his/her trumpet journey |
This.
To expand on one bit though...
From your (parent/buyer) POV - kids WILL dent instruments, it's something we'd like to think won't happen, but it more often than not does... Lightweights are lightweights because the brass is thinner - the same little impacts will cause more damage in a lightweight than a standard weight
There's plenty of student trumpets over the years that have been built like absolute tanks (Olds Ambassador's anyone?) and can take significant beating without becoming unplayable... it's that way for a reason.
I'd also echo the point about the middle ground - it's the middle ground for a reason...
Some players suit the extremes (extremely open or tight, unusually lightweight or heavyweight, etc) but until the player develops more, they won't know which extreme (if either) will suit them better.
Developmentally it shouldn't matter THAT much - but if the whole point is to buy something that shouldn't need upgrading for a long time... maybe deliberately choosing something that you'd potentially have to change because it doesn't match preferences would seem rather shortsighted/illogical? |
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fredo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
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I sold my 5000 YLS to a friend but kept the 3C Carol mpc.
Never tried it, it was in the plastic, new, just give a look for this thread.
It is a deep and big cup, clearly bigger and deeper than the Monette 6 cup. (aka small 3C)
The (trumpet) end of the Backbore is is between my Silver 6 and Prana 6 so very open bb.
The throat seems to be 26 or 27.
Conclusion : i would search something smaller for a beginner.
Bach 3 C, 6 C, 7C, Yamaha 11 B4 ?
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fredo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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For the trumpet, the Carol 4000 has a smaller leadpipe and should be better for a beginner as said previously, if you have a the possibility to modify your order or return the 5000. It could be OK with the 4000 (and cheaper)
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Frederic FELTZ
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:29 am Post subject: Student trumpet |
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I agree with fredo. A smaller trumpet would be more appropriate. Not having experience with Carol Brass trumpets. My recommendation would be Bach CR 300 cornet or a Bach Tr 300 trumpet. Due to the age of your daughter, most trumpets will be to large. Also a 3C may be to large for her lips.
Yamaha 14 E trumpet mouthpiece (waiting on arrival)
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ephemere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all this feedback, folks. Very useful!
I had no idea about this difference in sizes. The cost difference between 4000 and 5000 is negligible, but if the 4000 is better for this application then I'll see if I can change my order.
When you folks are saying a "smaller trumpet", do you mean a smaller leadpipe (as in the 4000) or smaller in some other way. (Assume it's a trumpet, not a cornet.)
Thanks! |
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fredo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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For me, smaller is with a tighter leadpipe and smaller air flow, easier to sustain for a non trained player.
It is exactly the same external shape : normal Bb trumpet.
The 3C Carol mpc is really huge ! Search smaller cup diameter.
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hackney_wick
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Delete
Last edited by hackney_wick on Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fredo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Cool ! didnt was aware of that add, and second advantage : normal weight bell : more solid than the thin one of 5000 YST
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trumpethead
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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The Carol Brass CTR-5000L-YST-L IMO, is one of the BEST trumpets one could buy. I'm a Pro player and have had mine for years - a GREAT horn.
But... it is a commercial-sounding trumpet with a large bell and an open blow.
Doesn't make it bad for a beginner, but an overkill and as others have said, a better choice would be a smaller, thicker bell and a horn that plays less open. |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| fredo wrote: | | For me, smaller is with a tighter leadpipe and smaller air flow, easier to sustain for a non trained player. |
The flip side is that tighter is also harder to master, but (often) more efficient when achieved...
Some excellent players get wonderful results from more open equipment and prefer to stick to it, some excellent players prefer more resistance and find they get better results that way - there are merits to both approaches, it's an individual choice.
Tighter (within reason) is great for less developed players as it's easier to cope with and promotes good habits... some players go through phases as intermediate to fairly advanced players where they find a more open blow allows them to develop faster for a time - some stick there, some go back to tighter stuff again later as they develop further.
There's no hard and fast rule that tight is best for relative beginners and wide open is what all the best players pick, there's a lot more nuance than that and some of the best players out there buck that trend...
But it's true that most beginner instruments tend to be on the more supportive side.
(Not disputing that, in this case, the slightly tighter and more abuse-proof 4000 is most likely the better option). |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Back to the issue of the 3C. It's a completely acceptable and appropriate mouthpiece size for a beginner in my book.
The ubiquitous 7C wasn't designed as a beginner mouthpiece. It just somehow ended up being the one shipped with all those beginner horns. There's nothing special about it as far as that goes. It's not a bad beginner mouthpiece either, though I'd prefer a friendlier rim like on a 3C or many Yamaha sizes (11B4 is a 7C with a better rim) and a less deep cup, but the reality is that almost any decent mouthpiece will work just fine.
I'll also agree with most of what was said above regarding horns and beginners. Middle of the road specs and a bit durable are good qualities to have in a student model. If you're in the US, the Kanstul 700 or any Getzen model are winners in my book as current production student horns. Getzens have the best valves in the industry on any of their models - student horns included.
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The horn you have ordered will be fine for your daughter to learn on. Easy to produce a sound on, in tune etc. Great that you can afford a professional level instrument. It is lightweight and could dent easier but if she is the sort of person that looks after gear it will be fine. However, having owned and played a carol 3c, I would not recommend it. As others have said it is not typical of most 3C's and it quite large and deep, making sound production harder. |
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