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ephemere Regular Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2017 Posts: 13
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: Carol Brass as a first horn? |
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Hi folks,
(This is a follow-up on my first post over on the mouthpiece forum.)
Would a Carol Brass CTR-4000H-YSS-L be a reasonable horn for a 9-year-old starting out? I know it's overkill compared to a student model such as an Olds Ambassador or Yamaha 2330/2335. But putting that aside, is there any reason why the CB 4000 would actually be more difficult to learn on than a student horn?
I originally chose the CTR-5000L-YST-L, but I got some advice over on the mouthpiece forum that the 4000 would be easier for a beginner due to the smaller leadpipe (explained here).
My original plan was to pick up an Olds Ambassador. But at the price that the nicer ones were going for, plus shipping, a new case, and some money for servicing, it's ends up more than I wanted to pay for a 50-year-old instrument that is unlikely to be headache-free.
Finally, someone recommended a used student cornet as a backup horn for practicing. I'm curious about this because Thomann has a cornet under their own label for quite a low price. Is there a rationale for this?
TrumpetHerald has been super-helpful to me so far. Thanks! |
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AwesomeDad Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2017 Posts: 161
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I don't know your budget but I picked up a new Kanstul 700 for my daughter for under 700. And for me if I can pick up a Known good horn for the same or less than an unknown variable horn I'm going with the sure thing. Ymmv.
JJ |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 652
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:30 am Post subject: Carol cornet |
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Better to buy a newer trumpet. Most of the older student trumpets don't have a first slide thumb saddle. I have owed many ... vintage trumpets and cornets. With the cost of repairs etc. my money would have been better spent on lessons.
Yes. A Carol Brass CTR-4000H-YSS-L or a CTR-4000H-YSS-S is a reasonable horn for a 9-year-old starting out. Ask for a smaller size mouthpiece. Excellent price for both trumpets. Trumpet should last her a long time. What is the return policy?
Not sure what country you live. In USA silver plated is preferred. Generally High school band directors like silver plated Bachs or Yamahas.
Will your daughter have a private instructor,music teacher or both? A brass instructor could tell you if the mouthpiece is suitable.
Good luck. You are an excellent parent. _________________ No musical instrument at this time. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Another place to check might be Austin Custom Brass. Trent (owner, and one **** of a player) has some student level instruments under either his own label or Manchester Brass (which is basically Carol Brass), and Trent does not sell any junk.
As others have mentioned, the Carol 5000L is more of a lightweight commercial horn, and being lighter also means easier to dent...which always happens with kids. It's also relatively bright, and might not be the best choice for concert band. (That being said, beginners' challenges in starting out pretty much over ride tone color; just a good clear tone period takes a while to develop). Not a terrible choice for a beginner, but I think there are better and even cheaper options.
In the area where I teach private lessons, 90% of beginners show up with Yamaha 2335's. I personally don't especially like them (they're NOT terrible, and are ok for a beginner), but that's what the local music store chain uses for it's beginner rental programs.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Carol cornet |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote: | Better to buy a newer trumpet. Most of the older student trumpets don't have a first slide thumb saddle. I have owed many ... vintage trumpets and cornets. With the cost of repairs etc. my money would have been better spent on lessons. |
I'd agree with not owning a high-maintenance vintage horn for a student.
I'd also say that the presence or lack of a first slide thumb saddle on a student horn is essentially irrelevant. It certainly doesn't hurt, but even I, when I played at a high level, only occasionally used it. Some sort of adjustment device on a third slide is far more important, in my opinion. Fortunately, most horns - even vintage ones - have that. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Carol cornet |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote: | Better to buy a newer trumpet. Most of the older student trumpets don't have a first slide thumb saddle. I have owed many ... vintage trumpets and cornets. With the cost of repairs etc. my money would have been better spent on lessons. |
I'd agree with not owning a high-maintenance vintage horn for a student.
I'd also say that the presence or lack of a first slide thumb saddle on a student horn is essentially irrelevant. It certainly doesn't hurt, but even I, when I played at a high level, only occasionally used it. Some sort of adjustment device on a third slide is far more important, in my opinion. Fortunately, most horns - even vintage ones - have that. |
Agreed!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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matthes93401 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 638
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think CarolBrass makes excellent cornets, and a cornet might be more comfortable to hold for a young person, promote good posture. Brasspire and Jupiter are brands worth considering too. |
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GuidoCorona Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014 Posts: 377 Location: Summerville, SC
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi ephemere, Why not get your young daughter a CarolBrass or Manchester pocket trumpet instead of a full size one?
Carol and Manchester make pocket trumpets that are excellent instruments, Not toys by any stretch of the imagination.... For all I read, these beauties are built to last... And all the videos I have heard of them makes me feel that they are quite good.
Reason that I am suggesting a pocket model is that a small person like a 9-year old might find holding up a long trumpet during long band practice sessions somewhat tiring... She will have to extend//stretch her arms in front of her proportionally much more than an adult.
But matthes93401 is absolutely right... A short cornet would work perfectly as well.... I simply adore my shorty Carolbrass CCR-7772R triple crooker.... And am way past 9 years of age. Mine has a .465 bore... Perhaps for your daughter, the 7770 variant with its .460 bore might work even better. The cornet is available in Yellow, golden, and red brass..... And with the usual Carolbrass finishes... Lackquered or silver plate, scratched or shiny. IMO, these cornets are life-long keepers. And intonation is as easy as it gets. The Carolbrass Classic mouthpiece that the horn comes with is delightful... It reminds me of a Wick "B" cup with a "better hair-cut".
Finally, there is the Carolbrass CTR-1100 Mini Pocket trumpet... Only 6" long... Basic, but sturdily constructed.... Costs about $450. Nice, but from the videos I have seen/heard, it does not seem to have the breadth of tone of the standrd pocket trumpets, let along the marvellous Carolbrass triple crook cornets.
Regards, Guido _________________ Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi ephemere, Why not get your young daughter a CarolBrass or Manchester pocket trumpet instead of a full size one?
Carol and Manchester make pocket trumpets that are excellent instruments, Not toys by any stretch of the imagination.... For all I read, these beauties are built to last... And all the videos I have heard of them makes me feel that they are quite good.
Reason that I am suggesting a pocket model is that a small person like a 9-year old might find holding up a long trumpet during long band practice sessions somewhat tiring... She will have to extend//stretch her arms in front of her proportionally much more than an adult.
But matthes93401 is absolutely right... A short cornet would work perfectly as well.... I simply adore my shorty Carolbrass CCR-7772R triple crooker.... And am way past 9 years of age. Mine has a .465 bore... Perhaps for your daughter, the 7770 variant with its .460 bore might work even better. The cornet is available in Yellow, golden, and red brass..... And with the usual Carolbrass finishes... Lackquered or silver plate, scratched or shiny. IMO, these cornets are life-long keepers. And intonation is as easy as it gets. The Carolbrass Classic mouthpiece that the horn comes with is delightful... It reminds me of a Wick "B" cup with a "better hair-cut".
Finally, there is the Carolbrass CTR-1100 Mini Pocket trumpet... Only 6" long... Basic, but sturdily constructed.... Costs about $450. Nice, but from the videos I have seen/heard, it does not seem to have the breadth of tone of the standrd pocket trumpets, let along the marvellous Carolbrass triple crook cornets.
Regards, Guido |
I agree that a cornet for a beginner is a good idea, for reasons you mention, and if it was up to me (it's not), I would have most of my beginners start on cornet. But I think a pocket trumpet would make the kid "stick out" if they are in any school ensemble. Kids tend to be influenced by their peers, and a pocket trumpet, in my opinion, is not a good idea.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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ejweiss Veteran Member
Joined: 15 May 2009 Posts: 295 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I taught beginning trumpet for 32 years. If she is a normal sized 9 year old she can manage a trumpet. Don't bother with a cornet or pocket trumpet. The 4000 would be an excellent horn that she could play all the way through High School. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would definitely remove pocket trumpets from the list of options. First, I doubt you will find any in 9 year old’s clsssmates. Fitting in is a big deal at that age. Second, standard mutes don’t fit some pocket trumpets.
I also would avoid cornets. Both my son and I started on cornet, so it isn’t the cornet per se, but again the child will be different. Also true cornets have a different sound concept than a trumpet.
In my opinion both of these reasons outweigh any benefit of having a shorter instrument which might, might, help initially, but will soon not be needed and you will need to purchase a trumpet.
As I did with my son. |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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You could do a lot worse than a horn from CB!
I think a cornet should be played as such so not recommending that for a beginners
I still fell pocket horns are a novelty
Kids don't want to be the odd man out so new, shiny and regular trumpets fit the bill _________________ a few different ones |
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fredo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 588 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Dennis78 and LittleRusty
The blow and sound of a pocket trumpet (i've a good one : CB ...) is somewhat frustrating for a trained player compared to the real thing, why impose that to a beginner ?
The cornet is not a bad idea,(i began on a Selmer one) but why ? Smaller wrap, sweeter sound ok. But as previously said in other beginners threads your kid risk to be "the one with the cornet" (and not appreciate that...)
Finally if you are in Europe (you speak from Thomann in the mpc thread) the 4000 CB seems to be a good choice, 538 Euros at your door, good playability and intonation, well made, very good valves after the breaking period (clean the valves and re oil after each day use the first weeks)
Just add a good Mpc : Yamaha 11B4, Bach 3 to 8 C and the most important : a good teacher.
After a few lessons the teacher will be able to give your kid some mouthpiece to try or/and advices for the mpc choice if the initial choice seems wrong for him.
Good luck to your daughter _________________ Frederic FELTZ
Yamaha XENO 2 8335 S
Lotus 3L brass |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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fredo wrote: | Finally if you are in Europe... | Traditions might be different if you aren't in the US. For instance British brass bands use cornets. Perhaps they start people on them also. |
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jgadvert Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2002 Posts: 1105 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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You can find student models by Bach, Yamaha, Besson, Olds, Holton on a site like your local Craigslist for $200 (or less every) day.
They come with a case and are in ready to play condition. No costly repairs needed. Most are in outstanding shiny shape. Since they are local, no shipping and you can check it out yourself in person.
Absurd to pay (an irresponsible for someone to suggest) paying hundreds more for a brand most people have never heard of...unless they read Trumpet Herald. And wait till you have to try to sell one of these brands if your daughter decides to not play anymore.
A what? These people really piss me off...have for years now. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6160
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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CB makes very good horns - you will not be disappointed. |
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trumpaholic Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1501 Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Look for a good used Carol Brass there are lots of them available. Have it ultrasonically cleaned and your good to go. 6280 H is a clone of a 37 Bach, good choice IMO. _________________ Have horn, will travel! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:14 am Post subject: |
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jgadvert wrote: | You can find student models by Bach, Yamaha, Besson, Olds, Holton on a site like your local Craigslist for $200 (or less every) day.
They come with a case and are in ready to play condition. No costly repairs needed. Most are in outstanding shiny shape. Since they are local, no shipping and you can check it out yourself in person.
Absurd to pay (an irresponsible for someone to suggest) paying hundreds more for a brand most people have never heard of...unless they read Trumpet Herald. And wait till you have to try to sell one of these brands if your daughter decides to not play anymore.
A what? These people really piss me off...have for years now. |
I agree with most of the above, but “irresponsible”? Sounds a bit extreme to me.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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ephemere Regular Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2017 Posts: 13
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to all of you for the help and advice!
I haven't had good luck shopping for a used horn. Folks on craigslist seem to want about 2x the going rate, and every single ebay listing I was following sold for much more than I was willing to pay. Maybe it's just that time of year.... That said, jgadvert has got me looking at craigslist again this morning. I do see an unidentified Bach that I might be able to get for cheap—marked "Bach USA" on the bell, otherwise I can't tell what model/vintage.
Also, while my daughter doesn't need a shiny new horn, I draw the line at sending her to and from school carrying one of those beat-up Olds Ambassador cases. That's just not going to fly with the 4th-grade set.
I really appreciate the feedback! |
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MacMichael Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 646
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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jgadvert wrote: |
Absurd to pay (an irresponsible for someone to suggest) paying hundreds more for a brand most people have never heard of...unless they read Trumpet Herald. And wait till you have to try to sell one of these brands if your daughter decides to not play anymore.
A what? These people really piss me off...have for years now. |
If you are referring to Carol Brass horn in your rant here, you seem to ignore the fact that they have become pretty well-known for their quality in the last 10 years or so. So in the case you mean CB trumpets you are not right in my opininon using such a harsh tone in your post. _________________ Olds Recording Trumpet, LA 1951
Carol Brass 8060H-GLS balanced Trumpet
Jupiter Flugelhorn 846RL |
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