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JazzFluegel
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Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 63
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 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| 1957Tim wrote: | Jim, my cornet is also lacquer. I told Flip I really didnt want another silver horn to polish, and as you say, the lacquered models are gorgeous. Several months ago I played music at a nursing home where my mother is a resident. When I pulled my cornet out of the case, an elderly lady sitting nearby exclaimed, Thats the most beautiful horn I have ever seen!  I think so too.
-1957Tim |
Any reason you got silver over copper bell other than Ag timbre generally "brighter" than Cu?
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the short vs. American Wild Thing(s)? If so, verdict(s) on performance for jazz combo work?
I note the short Wild Thing slide bends are reminiscent of the Marcinkiewicz Fluegel triple Shepherd's crook design which for me made the best recorded fluegel playback sounds.
Thanks.
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NOW, Keith Allen Pintar
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt Cornet
Kanstul 1525 FL
1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion |
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jhatpro
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Missing from my assessment of Flip's WT American long cornet is how personable and helpful he is. He called me the other day to make sure I'm enjoying the horn.
We had a nice conversation about horns and players past and present - great guy and a great resource for equipment and information about brass instruments.
He said he can't always chime in online concerning the Wild Things because it would seem like he's tooting his own horns but he invites emails from TH members and promises a timely reply.
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| JazzFluegel wrote: | | 1957Tim wrote: | Jim, my cornet is also lacquer. I told Flip I really didnt want another silver horn to polish, and as you say, the lacquered models are gorgeous. Several months ago I played music at a nursing home where my mother is a resident. When I pulled my cornet out of the case, an elderly lady sitting nearby exclaimed, Thats the most beautiful horn I have ever seen! I think so too.
-1957Tim |
Any reason you got silver over copper bell other than Ag timbre generally "brighter" than Cu?
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the short vs. American Wild Thing(s)? If so, verdict(s) on performance for jazz combo work?
I note the short Wild Thing slide bends are reminiscent of the Marcinkiewicz Fluegel triple Shepherd's crook design which for me made the best recorded fluegel playback sounds.
Thanks. |
One of the things that has been difficult has been the lack of recordings using the WT long cornet. Jim has helped with that with his recording but further comparisons would be great.
I've done searches for people using the cornet and it's hard to find.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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dstdenis
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Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | As you know a horn usually sounds different to the player than it does to the audience. I'm curious how you would describe the sounds of the two horns I played in the demo and which you prefer and why. |
I agree that the Conn has a slightly more compact sound with a bit more edge from higher harmonic overtones. The FO sounds more broad and open, less edgy. I can see a place for each kind of sound. For Muskrat Ramble, I like the brighter, more compact sound of the Conn. (Louis Armstrong's recording has an even brighter, more compact sound than that, which sounds right to my ears.) For a slow ballad, especially of a more recent vintage, I'd prefer the sound of the FO. I imagine you could take either horn in different sound directions with mouthpiece choice, so it probably just comes down to what you want to play.
Thanks for posting this video, and congrats on your new horn!
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I'll be happy to record a demo of the WT long cornet played on a variety of mouthpieces.
What would be the most useful format? Would the best comparison be a scale on each piece as opposed to tunes?
I wouldn't want it to turn into something overly long or too performance intensive. I'd rather do what would be the best way to reveal how each mouthpiece effects the sound.
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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shofarguy
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Location: AZ
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| JazzFluegel wrote: | | 1957Tim wrote: | Jim, my cornet is also lacquer. I told Flip I really didnt want another silver horn to polish, and as you say, the lacquered models are gorgeous. Several months ago I played music at a nursing home where my mother is a resident. When I pulled my cornet out of the case, an elderly lady sitting nearby exclaimed, Thats the most beautiful horn I have ever seen! I think so too.
-1957Tim |
Any reason you got silver over copper bell other than Ag timbre generally "brighter" than Cu?
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the short vs. American Wild Thing(s)? If so, verdict(s) on performance for jazz combo work?
I note the short Wild Thing slide bends are reminiscent of the Marcinkiewicz Fluegel triple Shepherd's crook design which for me made the best recorded fluegel playback sounds.
Thanks. |
Jazz,
I've played both on the same day in Flip's shop. The best way to describe the differences between the cornets is to add the Wild Thing trumpet into the comparison. Of the three, the trumpet is the brightest and has the most edge to its sound.
The Short Cornet is all about smooth sound. Its open radius bends on the valve tubing and the shepherd's crook on the bell bow calm the timbre significantly.
The American Long Cornet sits right in between those two. Not as aggressive as the trumpet, but more so than the Short.
Also, today's lacquer finish doesn't darken the sound like the old nitrocellulose lacquers of last century. The silver plate is actually somewhat the darker, more solid sound to my ears, but it is not dull by any means.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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JazzFluegel
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Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | JazzFluegel wrote: | | 1957Tim wrote: | Jim, my cornet is also lacquer. I told Flip I really didnt want another silver horn to polish, and as you say, the lacquered models are gorgeous. Several months ago I played music at a nursing home where my mother is a resident. When I pulled my cornet out of the case, an elderly lady sitting nearby exclaimed, Thats the most beautiful horn I have ever seen! I think so too.
-1957Tim |
Any reason you got silver over copper bell other than Ag timbre generally "brighter" than Cu?
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the short vs. American Wild Thing(s)? If so, verdict(s) on performance for jazz combo work?
I note the short Wild Thing slide bends are reminiscent of the Marcinkiewicz Fluegel triple Shepherd's crook design which for me made the best recorded fluegel playback sounds.
Thanks. |
Jazz,
I've played both on the same day in Flip's shop. The best way to describe the differences between the cornets is to add the Wild Thing trumpet into the comparison. Of the three, the trumpet is the brightest and has the most edge to its sound.
The Short Cornet is all about smooth sound. Its open radius bends on the valve tubing and the shepherd's crook on the bell bow calm the timbre significantly.
The American Long Cornet sits right in between those two. Not as aggressive as the trumpet, but more so than the Short.
Also, today's lacquer finish doesn't darken the sound like the old nitrocellulose lacquers of last century. The silver plate is actually somewhat the darker, more solid sound to my ears, but it is not dull by any means. |
Excellent. Have you ever compared a modern lacquered horn to an epoxied coated one? If so,____? Thank you, B.A.D.
_________________
Been here before...
CDs BIG SWING, runnerduck.com/tempos_cd.htm
JAZZ WORSHIP, cdbaby.com
NOW, Keith Allen Pintar
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt Cornet
Kanstul 1525 FL
1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion |
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jhatpro
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I just uploaded a demo of the WT American long cornet and a Conn 80A showing how the sound is influenced by mouthpiece choice.
Not wanting to distract anyone with my dazzling technique, I just played some scales and arpeggios.
I started with a Mark Curry 3DC (short shank) on the Conn 80A and a Flip Oakes 3 (old style) on the WT.
I also demonstrated a Bach 3C mouthpiece on both horns to show how a shallower cup affects sound. And I used a Curry 1.5 VC to show its mellowing capabilities. And in an effort to show the effect of a smaller rim I played a Bach 6 and 6C on both horns.
Here's the demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tBt2h2o4pY&feature=youtu.be
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
Last edited by jhatpro on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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It says video unavailable.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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jhatpro
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I just clicked on it and it came up fine.
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jhatpro
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I changed some YouTube settings. Try this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tBt2h2o4pY
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7012
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Jazz,
I know that what we refer to today as "lacquer" is some kind of polyester-acrylic mixture. I spoke with Kanstul's supplier representative who gave me this information, but could not divulge the recipe as Kanstul owns the rights to it. Getzen uses something similar, but when I spoke to Adam about it, he didn't really know the exact components of what they use, either. In both cases, they are using an electrostatic spray gun to apply the finish. That is the reason the finish is so thin and has such a minuscule effect on the sound of the instrument.
As far as epoxy finishes go, I know less about them. I don't even know that what is called "epoxy" is actually epoxy or something else. In California, industrial epoxy finishes have been regulated out use for perhaps 10 years. To my knowledge, I haven't played a horn (perhaps there was one refurbished Conn Director cornet) with an epoxy finish. If I have, I didn't find a significant difference to the P-A finish described above.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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It works now. I don't like the sound of the Bach 3C and Bach 6 in either horn. The FO #3 sounds nice in the Wild Thing and would work for ballads. The Curry VC sounds nice in the 80A and would be pretty good for general playing. There was something kind of interesting about the combination of the Bach 6C with either horn. Might be good for the trad. jazz we've been talking about.
If it were me and I were doing this test, I would narrow down to the best combinations and work through a song. This style of music requires a specific vibrato and other effects such as growls and such that one or the other might be easier with a certain combination. The style that you use, of course, would be yours and it's not up to us to pick the best combo I think.
Some of the dead zone I hear in the original recording was lessened in this one. I have noted, by the way, the same dead zone in other recordings of various WT trumpets and cornets. Possibly players don't listen for the same thing I do. So take anything I say with the appropriate pound of salt.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Richard. I'm going to put the FO 3 in the horn and the rest of them in a box and ask my wife to hide it somewhere!
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | Thanks, Richard. I'm going to put the FO 3 in the horn and the rest of them in a box and ask my wife to hide it somewhere! |
Great idea. I used to use my FO cornet mouthpiece in my large bore cornet and it worked for everything.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I figure the only reason you put a 3C in a cornet, is because you don't really want to be playing a cornet at all. 
(See this fairly often with people new to playing in a brass band. Call it 'avoidance' if you like.)
You might also give some consideration to the Curry BBC (Brass Band Cornet) mouthpiece. Not quite a Wick sound, but much closer to that British cornet sound, without the horrible Wick rim. Several people are using them in the brass band I play (flugel) in with good results. Then again, you may not be after that sound at all. Just a thought.
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Randy, you're right about the Curry BBC. I have one and should have included it in my demo because it does alter the sound - really mellows it.
As for the 3C, I assume many players go to it for help with range. It certainly does lean toward a trumpet sound.
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Jim. This is a great demonstration of mpc sensitivity of these two cornets.
I was surprised by how well both instruments retain some of their "cornet-ish" sound qualities even with the shallower mouthpieces. They also helped make the sound seem more compact and less spread. I think that would be desirable for playing vintage ensemble material like we hear from Tuba Skinny, for example.
Here's a recent video from them, and it strikes me how compact Shaye's sound is. She adds brilliance when she wants to cut through, and she backs off and sometimes puts in a mute when she wants to get out of the way. Even when she's cutting through, her sound leaves plenty of space to hear the rest of the band.
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Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link to some recent Skinny! Love that band - they've really retained the concept of collective improv. And I agree that Shaye knows how to use her setup to punch through at just the right moments.
She has great musical genes being the granddaughter of the late Al Cohn!
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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JazzFluegel
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | Jazz,
I know that what we refer to as lacquer.... In both cases, they are using an electrostatic spray gun to apply the finish. That is the reason the finish is so thin and has such a minuscule effect on the sound of the instrument.
As far as epoxy finishes go, I know less about them. ...e. |
"Thin" would be nice; the lacquer on my 1525 which I bought new just a few years ago is more like "molecular.". Already worn off in places that should last decades. I have become adept with my Blitz cloth & my lovely wife's clear nailpolish... It arrived NIB with black spots (and poor solder work) which I promptly reported in writing and am still waiting for a reply  Good thing it performs so magnificently. Thanks for the input, gV.
_________________
Been here before...
CDs BIG SWING, runnerduck.com/tempos_cd.htm
JAZZ WORSHIP, cdbaby.com
NOW, Keith Allen Pintar
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt Cornet
Kanstul 1525 FL
1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion |
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