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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject: Very specific question Reply with quote

I thank you all for your comments on compression. Takeaway - never ask this question again!

I have hopefully heard, learned, guessed, or am mistaken enough to ask a very specific question.

What techniques or book of studies/exercises would you personally pursue or have followed if you wanted to form a super strong appeture and embouchere? I am again going back to Mr. Manley to get farther into his secrets, but I want lips if steel and want the best way to get there. I am sorry if I have wasted a lot of time asking about other things surrounding this, and I may not be pursuing the correct approach. But this is what my dumb A** wants to do. Any suggestions (on the question asked haha) will be welcomed.

Again sorry for asking questions you real players have answered or read a kizillion times - but some things, pursuits, and questions never change...
Thanks
Rod
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Very specific question Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I thank you all for your comments on compression. Takeaway - never ask this question again!

I have hopefully heard, learned, guessed, or am mistaken enough to ask a very specific question.

What techniques or book of studies/exercises would you personally pursue or have followed if you wanted to form a super strong appeture and embouchere? I am again going back to Mr. Manley to get farther into his secrets, but I want lips if steel and want the best way to get there. I am sorry if I have wasted a lot of time asking about other things surrounding this, and I may not be pursuing the correct approach. But this is what my dumb A** wants to do. Any suggestions (on the question asked haha) will be welcomed.

Again sorry for asking questions you real players have answered or read a kizillion times - but some things, pursuits, and questions never change...
Thanks
Rod


I like to apply critical thinking to your question. In process of answering it. And to use C/T we need to both ask more questions and make more observations.

Like let us take probably the most accurate and highest playing trumpet player in history. Mr Bud Brisbois. Ask these questions,

1. What kind of chops did he have? Answer.
A. Forward jaw, upstream.
B. Generally played with dry lips.

2. How high could he blow?
A. He was able to articulate up to the G ABOVE triple c indeed he could even play higher than that note.

Now, was his embouchure transferrable to the rest of us? Answer, No. William Costello and Roy Stevens firmed a system based around chops settings such that Bud had. Later on however the rest of us discovered that this method was usually ineffective except for a minority of players who could work it.

Other trumpet players who could pull off this system. Are Jon Faddis, Cat Anderson. I also think that both Doc Severinsen and Wynton Marsallis uae chop settings of a similar design. But again,

It does not work well for the masses.

Similarly if you take a much different chop setting like Maggio or the Type III Standard setting by Donald Reihnhardt you would also find that not everyone could use it. Although it would probably fit a higher percentage of us than the Costello system.

In addition you would find different characteristics between different systems. That and some notable exceptions to the rule.

Exceptions such as,
For instance I know forward jaw "upstream" trumpet players who cant blow above a high C.

I know downstream players who can squeak up to triple C but cant play a forte high G.

Conclusion to the O/P's question,

Embouchure isnt always an elective choice. Generally speaking we need to go with a system that we are more naturally suited for. How to tell that? Well how do you blow the trumpet now?

There are some instances of successful conversions to specific embouchures which were significantly dilfferent that that which the student first used. Roy Roman being the highest profile example. Roman went from being a very weak trumpet player who was very unsure of himself and both tired swiftly and often played in pain. He wanted to quit. Then he met Roy Stevens who turned Roman into an extremely powerful lead trumpet player with an unlimited 5 & 1/2 octave range not including pedal tones.

Some trumpet players like to include pedals into their "range". I dont.

Basically, use your head.
Apply physics if your chops are not working properly.
That and try to use a chop setting which is close to what you play naturally.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, what works for one doesn't work for all. You have to find what works best for you.

What has worked for me are Maggio and the Balanced Embouchure. YMMV.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Specifically I am looking to make my lips strong enough to do 2 octaves on lip/appetite alone at low volume repeatedly using as little tongue and wind as possible. Just pure lip strength. This is all I'm looking for right now. Right or wrong this is specifically what I want.
Rod
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not the book as much as it is the approach to the book or exercises. Even when presented with a proven methodology we tend to disregard the teachings of the author and the pedagog we are working with. Many times we hear only part of what has been explained and fail to implement the entire proper approach.

It all takes time and your words betray a certain desperation. Patience is not desperate, it is relaxed and to some degree reassuring.This underling desperation is going to be your undoing unless you can remove it. At the risk of sounding way to Zen, the answers to what you seek are found within. You must be able to understand when you are doing something correctly and how you did it.

Taking a learning attitude or approach to developing any physical endeavor requires an understanding of how you accomplished the task, how to repeat it and how to make is as easy as possible to repeat or duplicate over and over and over.

Ask Jim how many High G’s he has played and what the context of those G’s were. Most of these G’s were not to prove he can play them nor were they played in performance. I submit they were played in the context of a process that was designed to create a physical memory or understanding of how to play a G. At this point he no longer thinks about how to do it, it simply is a motion or action that is “natural”.

We have all learned things like this as we developed. Can you ride a bike? How did you learn? Do you know how to use the backboard to make a basket? (bank shot) Even things like getting dressed we no longer think about. We can even be on the phone and eat breakfast while doing it. That is because we learned the motions needed to put our cloths on.

We must learn the motions needed to play in the upper register. In your head as you read this you are asking what are they? They are all described in books on forums and in videos. I will try to do a short video on velocity studies and what we/I can learn from them. It is not my video that will change your understanding. It is if and only if you finally feel what you did to produce the desired note(s)

I will use a 1960’s term; you have to be present. You have to be present when you practice. You cannot progress if you simply are going through the motions. As many have said, you do not want to over think it either. You can think too hard as well. Paying attention is far more productive than thinking. I have been thinking about a whole bunch of stuff for a long time. This has gotten me nowhere and at times confused. It is when I pay attention that answers come and direction is clear.

Earl D. Irons 27 groups of Exercises!
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Last edited by rufflicks on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
In other words, what works for one doesn't work for all. You have to find what works best for you.

What has worked for me are Maggio and the Balanced Embouchure. YMMV.



I second that! The BE method is by far the most revolutionary method I´ve devoted myself to. Has provided me with flexibility, endurance and a playable range I never thought possible. Never ever did I have that feeling in my chops. Soon 75 I can only deplore the fact that I missed the BE earlier in my long playing life (soon 60 years) Dedication&patience&perseverance required as always. Doesn´t require you to take special considerations if you are in the middle of playing/gigs etc.; just enhances and paves the way for a great embouchure (not to mention the confidence it brings in its train).
However that´s me (and kehaulani).
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,
You are correct that I am feeling a less than productive emotion, but it isn't desperation, it is frustration. I'm retired and was lucky enough to retire in leisure and not thru the music business. I have never tried to get better at anything that has been as hard to ferret out as this. I unfortunately didn't stay with music in my working career and now want to get as much in as I can because it makes me happy to play. I may be unusual but I also take enjoyment in simple improvement. You may be confusing my lack of patience for frustration. And it is a bad trait I have had to work around all my life to achieve success. I am sorry if it bled thru into my requests for help.

But my lack of patience is generally confined to finding the path and not staying on it. I am quite frankly amazed by the large # of ways that apperantely working pros have used to 'get er done' which are at times totally at odds with their contemporaries. So if frustration is showing it would be regarding the fact that it still seems to be a bit of dark art vs. coming into a science of playing. The science part relating to the 'how to'. I also understand I am a big part of this confusion when i dont even know the terms or how to phrase what I am really looking for. And yes I am 'desperate' to get to the right path but patient to get thru it if I am saying this correctly. I was just trying to hone my questions to get a specific answer.

About 2.5 years ago I plugged into you and KO and you both started me down a path to just see what was out there and I spent a lot of time seeing about different methods and decided I wanted to play more in control to progress. Manley got me started and I unfortunately didn't dig deep enough but still got great results. I am a very inside my head type of player and like to know what I am trying to do and then concentrate at a high level to get it done. This has always been very successful way to learn and progress for me. My problem now is that I find the body of 'experts' I look to do not agree and are sometimes diametrically opposed in their views. I am starting to think that my best bet may be to find someone who can do what I want and stay with their methods instead of following my own head. Thanks for the Iorns suggestion, I will look at it immediately. And thanks to everyone trying to help me it says a lot for the community.

On the hunt
Rod
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rod - what, please, is the relevance of "apetite" to this. I don't understand.

rufflicks - would you mind breaking your posts down into more workable paragraphs? I enjoy your posts but they are sometimes a challenge to read if your eyes aren't functioning like they should. Thanks.

The point that it is "not the book as much as it is the approach to the book or exercises" is well made but with this caveat: some books use pedal tones a lot, some not at all, so that technique might help you or not but the inclusion or exclusion of them might be significant.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Rod.



Rod Haney wrote:
Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod

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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Specifically I am looking to make my lips strong enough to do 2 octaves on lip/appetite alone at low volume repeatedly using as little tongue and wind as possible. Just pure lip strength. This is all I'm looking for right now. Right or wrong this is specifically what I want.
Rod

Every time I try to make range all about the lips I wind up losing range. I share your frustration but I don't think lip strength alone is going to be the ticket. If you find otherwise I'll be very interested in your results.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all about, I am just trying to take this particular pillar to a very high level as my wind may never meet the standard. I certainly don't mean to ignore any portion of the equation, I'm just trying to make up for my current lack of developed breathing. Since I smoked a lot of things for over 40 years developing my breathing apparatus will take some remedial steps that will not progress quickly. I am biking and exercising and trying to do the Gordon walk. In the meantime I wish to develop the lip while the other piece remediates and gets stronger. It will take more time to remediate this and although I can do a lot of things on the horn to improve breath control, I gotta repair the equipment somewhat. Trying to keep busy doing productive things while this catches up or gets better.
Rod
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“The only role of the lips is to allow the air to pass through them”.

Maynard Ferguson
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“You are so lost… like a drowning man flailing in the water. To save you I would have to incapacitate you so you would not take me down with you”.

Jon Ruff
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rlk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod


aperture

Too many p's, not enough r's
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your vision of the pillar is wrong you completely misunderstand its function. The lips are not a pillar they are a door or a window. If you use an analogy it must connect to the function of what you are describing for it to be correct.

Your real goal is to build a strong embouchure. Your lips are a door or window. The aperture is the opening. The tissue and facial structure surrounding the lips are the frame. The mouth is the house. The lungs and mechanism that activates them are the foundation. All these things must work together for any possible result.

To attempt to strengthen the lips by separating them from the complete structure is impossible. There are those that will state it is the muscles surrounding the lips that make the lips strong. “corners…use a pete.” I say that area is a frame that simply holds the embouchure in place. This action only needs to be strong enough to allow the lips to vibrate and maintain a aperture without loosing the seal.

If you blow like mad cause “you use a lot of air” you will need incredibly strong corners and probably apply way too much pressure. This is inefficient and it will lead to poor results. If you maintain a relaxed approach by only using enough air to produce a nice controlled tone and eliminate pressure on the chops and release throat and upper body tension you will have much improved results.

You wish for better or for worse, for right or wrong to concentrate on your lips. Sir this is a Fool's errand.

At the risk of being told that my videos contain Faulty or Pseudo Science I shall post 2. of them.

I may use words that are scientifically incorrect but conceptually these are ideas that may help put some pieces together for non-since folks. I do not intend for them to be considered as a scientific approach. I come from a very human approach.
(As much as I like Spock, Kirk had more fun).

All my videos are meant to provoke thought. If you think they suck I was successful.

Here is a video about efficiency


Link



Here is a video about air.


Link


Best,
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Last edited by rufflicks on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:47 am; edited 3 times in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, rufflicks. Helps me out a whole lot.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kehaulani,

Thank you, your words mean a lot to me... trust me it feels so good to know that some piece of information helps. Do check out the video links in the top video those are the real gems

I split up my previous posts for you… good point! Depending on time of day my sight is an issue.

Oh and Go Bows

Best, Jon
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Last edited by rufflicks on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod,

I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?

Brad
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homecookin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Rod,

I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?

Brad

Great Post !!!
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