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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:24 pm Post subject: Very specific question |
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I thank you all for your comments on compression. Takeaway - never ask this question again!
I have hopefully heard, learned, guessed, or am mistaken enough to ask a very specific question.
What techniques or book of studies/exercises would you personally pursue or have followed if you wanted to form a super strong appeture and embouchere? I am again going back to Mr. Manley to get farther into his secrets, but I want lips if steel and want the best way to get there. I am sorry if I have wasted a lot of time asking about other things surrounding this, and I may not be pursuing the correct approach. But this is what my dumb A** wants to do. Any suggestions (on the question asked haha) will be welcomed.
Again sorry for asking questions you real players have answered or read a kizillion times - but some things, pursuits, and questions never change...
Thanks
Rod |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Very specific question |
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Rod Haney wrote: | I thank you all for your comments on compression. Takeaway - never ask this question again!
I have hopefully heard, learned, guessed, or am mistaken enough to ask a very specific question.
What techniques or book of studies/exercises would you personally pursue or have followed if you wanted to form a super strong appeture and embouchere? I am again going back to Mr. Manley to get farther into his secrets, but I want lips if steel and want the best way to get there. I am sorry if I have wasted a lot of time asking about other things surrounding this, and I may not be pursuing the correct approach. But this is what my dumb A** wants to do. Any suggestions (on the question asked haha) will be welcomed.
Again sorry for asking questions you real players have answered or read a kizillion times - but some things, pursuits, and questions never change...
Thanks
Rod |
I like to apply critical thinking to your question. In process of answering it. And to use C/T we need to both ask more questions and make more observations.
Like let us take probably the most accurate and highest playing trumpet player in history. Mr Bud Brisbois. Ask these questions,
1. What kind of chops did he have? Answer.
A. Forward jaw, upstream.
B. Generally played with dry lips.
2. How high could he blow?
A. He was able to articulate up to the G ABOVE triple c indeed he could even play higher than that note.
Now, was his embouchure transferrable to the rest of us? Answer, No. William Costello and Roy Stevens firmed a system based around chops settings such that Bud had. Later on however the rest of us discovered that this method was usually ineffective except for a minority of players who could work it.
Other trumpet players who could pull off this system. Are Jon Faddis, Cat Anderson. I also think that both Doc Severinsen and Wynton Marsallis uae chop settings of a similar design. But again,
It does not work well for the masses.
Similarly if you take a much different chop setting like Maggio or the Type III Standard setting by Donald Reihnhardt you would also find that not everyone could use it. Although it would probably fit a higher percentage of us than the Costello system.
In addition you would find different characteristics between different systems. That and some notable exceptions to the rule.
Exceptions such as,
For instance I know forward jaw "upstream" trumpet players who cant blow above a high C.
I know downstream players who can squeak up to triple C but cant play a forte high G.
Conclusion to the O/P's question,
Embouchure isnt always an elective choice. Generally speaking we need to go with a system that we are more naturally suited for. How to tell that? Well how do you blow the trumpet now?
There are some instances of successful conversions to specific embouchures which were significantly dilfferent that that which the student first used. Roy Roman being the highest profile example. Roman went from being a very weak trumpet player who was very unsure of himself and both tired swiftly and often played in pain. He wanted to quit. Then he met Roy Stevens who turned Roman into an extremely powerful lead trumpet player with an unlimited 5 & 1/2 octave range not including pedal tones.
Some trumpet players like to include pedals into their "range". I dont.
Basically, use your head.
Apply physics if your chops are not working properly.
That and try to use a chop setting which is close to what you play naturally. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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In other words, what works for one doesn't work for all. You have to find what works best for you.
What has worked for me are Maggio and the Balanced Embouchure. YMMV. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Specifically I am looking to make my lips strong enough to do 2 octaves on lip/appetite alone at low volume repeatedly using as little tongue and wind as possible. Just pure lip strength. This is all I'm looking for right now. Right or wrong this is specifically what I want.
Rod |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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It is not the book as much as it is the approach to the book or exercises. Even when presented with a proven methodology we tend to disregard the teachings of the author and the pedagog we are working with. Many times we hear only part of what has been explained and fail to implement the entire proper approach.
It all takes time and your words betray a certain desperation. Patience is not desperate, it is relaxed and to some degree reassuring.This underling desperation is going to be your undoing unless you can remove it. At the risk of sounding way to Zen, the answers to what you seek are found within. You must be able to understand when you are doing something correctly and how you did it.
Taking a learning attitude or approach to developing any physical endeavor requires an understanding of how you accomplished the task, how to repeat it and how to make is as easy as possible to repeat or duplicate over and over and over.
Ask Jim how many High G’s he has played and what the context of those G’s were. Most of these G’s were not to prove he can play them nor were they played in performance. I submit they were played in the context of a process that was designed to create a physical memory or understanding of how to play a G. At this point he no longer thinks about how to do it, it simply is a motion or action that is “natural”.
We have all learned things like this as we developed. Can you ride a bike? How did you learn? Do you know how to use the backboard to make a basket? (bank shot) Even things like getting dressed we no longer think about. We can even be on the phone and eat breakfast while doing it. That is because we learned the motions needed to put our cloths on.
We must learn the motions needed to play in the upper register. In your head as you read this you are asking what are they? They are all described in books on forums and in videos. I will try to do a short video on velocity studies and what we/I can learn from them. It is not my video that will change your understanding. It is if and only if you finally feel what you did to produce the desired note(s)
I will use a 1960’s term; you have to be present. You have to be present when you practice. You cannot progress if you simply are going through the motions. As many have said, you do not want to over think it either. You can think too hard as well. Paying attention is far more productive than thinking. I have been thinking about a whole bunch of stuff for a long time. This has gotten me nowhere and at times confused. It is when I pay attention that answers come and direction is clear.
Earl D. Irons 27 groups of Exercises! _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun.
Last edited by rufflicks on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1458 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | In other words, what works for one doesn't work for all. You have to find what works best for you.
What has worked for me are Maggio and the Balanced Embouchure. YMMV. |
I second that! The BE method is by far the most revolutionary method I´ve devoted myself to. Has provided me with flexibility, endurance and a playable range I never thought possible. Never ever did I have that feeling in my chops. Soon 75 I can only deplore the fact that I missed the BE earlier in my long playing life (soon 60 years) Dedication&patience&perseverance required as always. Doesn´t require you to take special considerations if you are in the middle of playing/gigs etc.; just enhances and paves the way for a great embouchure (not to mention the confidence it brings in its train).
However that´s me (and kehaulani). _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Jon,
You are correct that I am feeling a less than productive emotion, but it isn't desperation, it is frustration. I'm retired and was lucky enough to retire in leisure and not thru the music business. I have never tried to get better at anything that has been as hard to ferret out as this. I unfortunately didn't stay with music in my working career and now want to get as much in as I can because it makes me happy to play. I may be unusual but I also take enjoyment in simple improvement. You may be confusing my lack of patience for frustration. And it is a bad trait I have had to work around all my life to achieve success. I am sorry if it bled thru into my requests for help.
But my lack of patience is generally confined to finding the path and not staying on it. I am quite frankly amazed by the large # of ways that apperantely working pros have used to 'get er done' which are at times totally at odds with their contemporaries. So if frustration is showing it would be regarding the fact that it still seems to be a bit of dark art vs. coming into a science of playing. The science part relating to the 'how to'. I also understand I am a big part of this confusion when i dont even know the terms or how to phrase what I am really looking for. And yes I am 'desperate' to get to the right path but patient to get thru it if I am saying this correctly. I was just trying to hone my questions to get a specific answer.
About 2.5 years ago I plugged into you and KO and you both started me down a path to just see what was out there and I spent a lot of time seeing about different methods and decided I wanted to play more in control to progress. Manley got me started and I unfortunately didn't dig deep enough but still got great results. I am a very inside my head type of player and like to know what I am trying to do and then concentrate at a high level to get it done. This has always been very successful way to learn and progress for me. My problem now is that I find the body of 'experts' I look to do not agree and are sometimes diametrically opposed in their views. I am starting to think that my best bet may be to find someone who can do what I want and stay with their methods instead of following my own head. Thanks for the Iorns suggestion, I will look at it immediately. And thanks to everyone trying to help me it says a lot for the community.
On the hunt
Rod |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: |
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rod - what, please, is the relevance of "apetite" to this. I don't understand.
rufflicks - would you mind breaking your posts down into more workable paragraphs? I enjoy your posts but they are sometimes a challenge to read if your eyes aren't functioning like they should. Thanks.
The point that it is "not the book as much as it is the approach to the book or exercises" is well made but with this caveat: some books use pedal tones a lot, some not at all, so that technique might help you or not but the inclusion or exclusion of them might be significant. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Rod.
Rod Haney wrote: | Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod |
_________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | Specifically I am looking to make my lips strong enough to do 2 octaves on lip/appetite alone at low volume repeatedly using as little tongue and wind as possible. Just pure lip strength. This is all I'm looking for right now. Right or wrong this is specifically what I want.
Rod |
Every time I try to make range all about the lips I wind up losing range. I share your frustration but I don't think lip strength alone is going to be the ticket. If you find otherwise I'll be very interested in your results. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Not all about, I am just trying to take this particular pillar to a very high level as my wind may never meet the standard. I certainly don't mean to ignore any portion of the equation, I'm just trying to make up for my current lack of developed breathing. Since I smoked a lot of things for over 40 years developing my breathing apparatus will take some remedial steps that will not progress quickly. I am biking and exercising and trying to do the Gordon walk. In the meantime I wish to develop the lip while the other piece remediates and gets stronger. It will take more time to remediate this and although I can do a lot of things on the horn to improve breath control, I gotta repair the equipment somewhat. Trying to keep busy doing productive things while this catches up or gets better.
Rod |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: |
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“The only role of the lips is to allow the air to pass through them”.
Maynard Ferguson _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
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“You are so lost… like a drowning man flailing in the water. To save you I would have to incapacitate you so you would not take me down with you”.
Jon Ruff _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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rlk Regular Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 35
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | Sorry appeture - appetite is the autocorrect on my browsers d I don't always catch it. I have an appetite for a stronger appeture!
Rod |
aperture
Too many p's, not enough r's |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, rufflicks. Helps me out a whole lot. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Kehaulani,
Thank you, your words mean a lot to me... trust me it feels so good to know that some piece of information helps. Do check out the video links in the top video those are the real gems
I split up my previous posts for you… good point! Depending on time of day my sight is an issue.
Oh and Go Bows
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun.
Last edited by rufflicks on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Rod,
I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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homecookin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2013 Posts: 868
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Rod,
I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?
Brad |
Great Post !!! |
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