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Very specific question


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homecookin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2013
Posts: 868

PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod,
With all due respect, I think you are being way too analytical.
You can accomplish everything you need to with just an Arban book.
If you have a basic good embouchure setup, and you are breathing correctly
It is just a matter of...DOING IT !!!
For example, in the SCALE STUDIES section of the Arban book, take the first section
C MAJOR and work that section till you can play it flawlessly, ALL OF IT !!!
Then transpose It up by half steps, that is several months worth of work right there.
The section on intervals on page 125 is also very helpful for developing range
and accuracy, once again, when you have played the whole page,
go back to the first one and take them up an octave. All of this is not
accomplished overnight ...obviously.
To build your endurance... work through the 14 CHARACTERISTIC
STUDIES till you can play each one all the way through without stopping.
Spend more time working out of whatever basic trumpet methods you have
and less time thinking about high notes, and you might be pleasantly
surprised and how much your command of the instrument will improve.
And as Brad 361 was referring to in his post, a good teacher can get you
started in the right direction.


Last edited by homecookin on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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homecookin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, concerning the ARBAN BOOK...
The First Studies are excellent to develop embouchure and
aperture and breathing. Exercises 1 through 10
should be played at varying dynamics, but never too loud.
When you get to the scale and interval studies, 11 Though 50,
Transpose them up a major third and a perfect fifth.
The point I'm trying to make, is that there's so much more
to be gained from the ARBAN BOOK, than most players
realize.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Rod,

I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?

Brad

No and that will be corrected next Tuesday. And I'll stick to them and quit thinking about it. I appreciate everyone's help and patience but will take this off line where it belongs. It's funny how you can try to learn one thing and learn a wholly different lesson.
Rod
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Rod,

I very well may have missed this in some of your posts, but are you taking private lessons?

Brad

No and that will be corrected next Tuesday. And I'll stick to them and quit thinking about it. I appreciate everyone's help and patience but will take this off line where it belongs. It's funny how you can try to learn one thing and learn a wholly different lesson.
Rod


I think that’s GREAT!

I don’t think this is one single thing that will accelerate improvement quicker than private lessons with a qualified teacher.

Best of luck, let us know how it goes!

Brad
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you and yes I agree. I simply dont know enough to direct myself in this and in frustration get a little spastic. I was taking lessons with Jim Manley and progressing quickly, then I thought I had it and quit. We start again next week and since I'm already familiar with him and like him and his style I think this will get me back in the right frame of mind. I feel I have been taking this a bit too seriously and not giving things a chance to develop by constantly pushing for more every day.
Thanks to all of you again,
Ill post a vid when I finally get that nice dbl.
Rod
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Very specific question Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I thank you all for your comments on compression. Takeaway - never ask this question again!

I have hopefully heard, learned, guessed, or am mistaken enough to ask a very specific question.

What techniques or book of studies/exercises would you personally pursue or have followed if you wanted to form a super strong appeture and embouchere? I am again going back to Mr. Manley to get farther into his secrets, but I want lips if steel and want the best way to get there. I am sorry if I have wasted a lot of time asking about other things surrounding this, and I may not be pursuing the correct approach. But this is what my dumb A** wants to do. Any suggestions (on the question asked haha) will be welcomed.

Again sorry for asking questions you real players have answered or read a kizillion times - but some things, pursuits, and questions never change...



Thanks
Rod


There is no book available which had concepts in it such ypu describe. Occassionally a book or two touches on isometrics. Like the pencil exercise or the PETE. And yet I found even these approaches remiss at helping me develop a powerful embouchure.

In fact some trumpet players do not need particularly strong facial muscles to pull off outstanding high notes. As theyre able to allow natural conditions to facilitate the blow. Often these kinds of trumpet players use dry lips. In their special condition the obtain a certain kind of power and coordination from a dry lip embouchure which allows them outstanding register.

No for me however. I had to take isometric exercises to the limit of my body's capability before my double C evem came in usably. And if I lay off these isometrics even just one week? I lose my C. Just that quickly. Ask me what isometrics work for me.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are problems with that question.
You won't ever make it with that thinking.

Yes it is possible to produce high pitches with almost no air and all lip aperture.
They stink and always will stink.
Nobody in the world will ever want to hear you do them.

Getting that strong also makes you not supple enough to be resonant when you actually add air.

The way to play and sound like Jim is to work on the whole system together.

If you are taking lessons from Jim Manley in person; you are INSANE for coming on a forum and asking. BTW tell Jim that Pops said hi.

Now get your tail back to a lesson.
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50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pops wrote:
There are problems with that question.
You won't ever make it with that thinking.

Yes it is possible to produce high pitches with almost no air and all lip aperture.
They stink and always will stink.
Nobody in the world will ever want to hear you do them.

Getting that strong also makes you not supple enough to be resonant when you actually add air.

The way to play and sound like Jim is to work on the whole system together.

If you are taking lessons from Jim Manley in person; you are INSANE for coming on a forum and asking. BTW tell Jim that Pops said hi.

Now get your tail back to a lesson.


Haha Insane maybe - stupid probably! And nope not in person (not that lucky), but Skype. And you are right to advise people not to ask how-to questions of this type on a forum if you can have a good instructor. I am newly back to the horn (last played 69-70) and I spazzed on internet ‘knowledge’. I will pass your greeting to Jim on Monday.

And the reason I was asking how to max these factors is that I smoked cigarretes and other substances from 1970 thru 2014. My lungs have deficiencies which will take some time to make stronger, and I am working on that. In the past 30 months I have taken my range from a barely repeatable e on the staff to a hi e thats still there after 2 hours of practice. But I ran into a wall and had to start remediation my breath. At this point I have having difficulty doing Iorns 1st 2 sets of exercises at 60 bpm. In 69 I could do them fully without rest easily. In the meantime while I do the Gordon walk and ride my bike, i wanted to keep developing tongue/emb. To make up for some deficiencies in wind. I played well enough in the dark ages I knew it took it all and I had big air in those days. Ill talk to Jim about this all and I have been around him enough to know its a complete effort. And Ill explain to him what Ive been trying to do (its been about 6 months since last lesson) and then just put myself in his capable hands.
Thanks,

Rod
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arnold Jacobs played tuba, rather well by all accounts, with one lung. Jim Manley is all about ease in playing; you don't need such strength. Plus he's a great guy (I have met him a couple of times and taken a lesson in person). Pops is 1000% correct, talk to Jim and quit looking for quick answers on the 'net.

And tell him I said "hi", too.
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had my 1st lesson back with Jim, and I had forgotten to use the most basic thing he had shown me. 30 minutes and I’m back on track with a very, hard learned lesson back under my belt. The guy listened and looed and spotted my breath support right away. We go thru the drill and everything improves and believe it or not my fumbling in the weeds gave me a much stronger understanding of what he is having me do. And what he teaches is very simple, but there seems to only be one way to do it and it was not what I thought before. Going off on my own and getting pretty lost was a negative only if I stayed lost. Some of the things I tried gave me a better understanding of what the object is. For the 1st time today I understand what people are saying when they say ‘don’t fight the horn” everything seems easier when you find what the horn wants and what happens when you dont. Thanks to everyone who told me to get back to instruction, in this case it will work wonders, already has. Jims really good at this and a really comfortable guide. I passed along the hellos from others too.
Rod
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tim_wolf
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006
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Location: Lancaster, PA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Very specific question Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Now, was his embouchure transferrable to the rest of us? Answer, No. William Costello and Roy Stevens firmed a system based around chops settings such that Bud had. Later on however the rest of us discovered that this method was usually ineffective except for a minority of players who could work it.

Other trumpet players who could pull off this system. Are Jon Faddis, Cat Anderson. I also think that both Doc Severinsen and Wynton Marsallis uae chop settings of a similar design. But again, It does not work well for the masses.


This was totally my experience. Back in 2001, I spend my income tax rebate on lessons with Eric Goletz, a Steven teacher in NYC. Despite two lessons a month for about six months, and then one a month for six more, I did not improve one single bit. I just could not get the forward jaw stuff, no matter how much I tried.

I can't help but wonder if only those who naturally have a forward jaw can make this work.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Very specific question Reply with quote

tim_wolf wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Now, was his embouchure transferrable to the rest of us? Answer, No. William Costello and Roy Stevens firmed a system based around chops settings such that Bud had. Later on however the rest of us discovered that this method was usually ineffective except for a minority of players who could work it.

Other trumpet players who could pull off this system. Are Jon Faddis, Cat Anderson. I also think that both Doc Severinsen and Wynton Marsallis uae chop settings of a similar design. But again, It does not work well for the masses.


This was totally my experience. Back in 2001, I spend my income tax rebate on lessons with Eric Goletz, a Steven teacher in NYC. Despite two lessons a month for about six months, and then one a month for six more, I did not improve one single bit. I just could not get the forward jaw stuff, no matter how much I tried.

I can't help but wonder if only those who naturally have a forward jaw can make this work.



Tim,
You're sure asking the right question. And while I cant prove it so easily the determining factor at who can pull off the firward jaw and who cant may just be the elasticity of the upper lip. In general the most vibrant portion of one's chops is thatbarea on the upper lip just barely inside the mouth. The area just below where our upper lip contacts the upper teeth.. To access this "dweet spot" best ee usually point our horns down while receding and opening our jaw. Hence? Hence? The "receded jaw embouchure".
I tried to make theo too but couldnt pull it off.

Somewhere in the archives of my former colleg practice room hall is a piece of grafitti spelling,

"All that Roy Stevens has is lots of brass player's money".
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