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Balancing an embouchure change with normal playing


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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really enjoying all the good advice and personal experience in this thread.

Honestly, is there anyone who never had to shift their focus and make an adjustment to how they approach the instrument? It seems like college would be the best time to do that. There will be no other time in life that your education will be nurtured in this way. It may seem like sink or swim but this is the time to ask questions, experiment, and learn how to do better.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is never a better time to correct a problem than now. College seems very important now and keeping up or ahead of your fellow trumpeters is also important now but in the scope of your life - NOW might be the time to stop drop and roll. The issue you seem to have is not even going to allow you to compete let alone excel. Even if you drop behind a semester in progress to cure the issue at least you will be back with a chance when you cure the issue. I'm not sure this is an issue for you but it was for me - pride - sometimes you have to take a step back and pride or peer pressure ( or internal dialogue ) won't let you take the step that would be most beneficial. And that's not just a
lesson for trumpet. If you are serious about playing for a living then do whatever however to get it fixed, and don't hide it or fake it - just beat it.

How do you even know it's your emb.?
Spend 75$ on a Skype lesson with Jim Manley and if he can't help you with his methods or spot an issue, I'll bet he will point you directly to someone who can. It might be the best money you ever spend!
Rod
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaps of Faith wrote:
Hey man, thanks so much for sharing your story. It really helps to know what to expect here and what it'll take from me mentally and physically to get through this. That really inspires me, seriously. If you don't mind sharing, could you tell me what exactly was your embouchure problem and what steps you took to work towards it during the school year before you fully committed to a hard switch? Something tells me that would be invaluable information.


It's been about 20 years, so some things are a little murky, but I can try to explain what I remember.

In hindsight, my problem was one of conception - both in terms of sound concept and how to make the trumpet work. At the time, I conceived of the change as "moving out of the red." In reality, I was changing the way I thought about the instrument and my relationship to it.

In the year leading up to the change, I was experiencing pretty significant discomfort in my top lip, limited or no improvement in my sound, and had a somewhat permanent wound on the inside of my top lip. If I took a day off, it would heal start to heal back, but would quickly return with playing. Taking days off caused many problems since my wound was central to my playing.

In terms of what it looked like, it was very low, with quite a bit of red showing outside the top rim. While some people work very well this way, it wasn't working for me. The top lip that was under the rim was more or less a flat piece of meat just pinned down and manipulated. Strangely, I could play forever this way, never really feeling tired, but never sounding very good and always hurting a little bit.

The new setup was moved up to something approximating half and half and looked essentially like my buzzing setup. I'd guess that I'm about 60/40 top to bottom now, but I'm not very good at estimating these things. The biggest thing is that I wasn't pinning a small portion of my upper lip between the rim and the edge of my teeth.

The switch was made with repetitions of lips, mouthpiece, play, which I still do quite a bit of to this day. I did some buzzing on to the horn (buzz lips, move horn onto buzzing lips), which I've since discarded. I also practiced scales and slurs (working out of Clyde Hunts 7 Cs book) using all sorts of goofy grips to demand minimal pressure. I would rest bell on the thumb and pinky of my left hand and try to play these exercises. I would do slurs holding the horn with just my thumbs. I've long since discarded these grips, but I think at the time there may have been some value. My previous approach had been to use the mechanical interaction between my lips, teeth, and mouthpiece via my left bicep. Learning that I control the horn, rather than this interaction was valuable.

I also practiced a bit of Maggio.

Over time, all of this stuff has morphed into a modified Stamp with Song and Wind as the foundation.

I read EVERYTHING I could get my hands on - every trumpet method in the library, bought books from lots of internet trumpet sensations, and tried to make sense of everything.

In the months leading up to the switch, I just did some simple exercises on the lips, visualizer, mouthpiece, and horn. When I say simple exercises, I mean trying to play a single note or just a few notes. I also would buzz into the horn.
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Leaps of Faith
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Joined: 09 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:

Thanks for responding. If you were comfortable with Bb and C above the staff with your prior system but now have difficulty playing above C in the staff, that's obviously a very drastic reduction in your range. So, the question is: What's happening? What do you/your teacher think is happening? I would expect the change to immediately give you a more robust sound and not significantly affect your range.

The fact that your range is so dramatically reduced suggests that you've changed the point of vibration to a much stiffer area of your upper lip (farther forward). Have you tried your new mouthpiece placement with your previous roll in to keep the vibration point where it was (farther back)?


I suppose I should have done more clarification here. Yes, I could play to C above the staff with a decent amount of frequency, but the consistency of tone quality across registers was a problem. Although it wasn't always the case, playing high tended to result in a brittle, strident tone, and I had trouble playing high notes out of context, like pulling a high C out of nowhere. Issues of consistency like this, along with endurance issues and injuries on the inside of my lower lip and the skin right below it from rolling in too much made it clear that there were fundamental problems that needed to be addressed. Sorry, I should have been more clear there.

JoseLindE4 wrote:

The switch was made with repetitions of lips, mouthpiece, play, which I still do quite a bit of to this day. I did some buzzing on to the horn (buzz lips, move horn onto buzzing lips), which I've since discarded. I also practiced scales and slurs (working out of Clyde Hunts 7 Cs book) using all sorts of goofy grips to demand minimal pressure. I would rest bell on the thumb and pinky of my left hand and try to play these exercises. I would do slurs holding the horn with just my thumbs. I've long since discarded these grips, but I think at the time there may have been some value. My previous approach had been to use the mechanical interaction between my lips, teeth, and mouthpiece via my left bicep. Learning that I control the horn, rather than this interaction was valuable.

I also practiced a bit of Maggio.

Over time, all of this stuff has morphed into a modified Stamp with Song and Wind as the foundation.

I read EVERYTHING I could get my hands on - every trumpet method in the library, bought books from lots of internet trumpet sensations, and tried to make sense of everything.


Thanks for sharing again. I'll keep these exercises in mind when I go practice, especially the ones meant to reduce pressure. Do you have any recommendations for brass pedagogy literature or any books you found particularly helpful? I'm starting with Farkas' "The Art of Brass Playing" and trying to make sense of what the embouchure really is. I feel hungry for knowledge now, like I really want to understand what I'm working towards and understand it at a higher level. It's hard not to be pessimistic about this, but I take it this really is a chance to take my understanding of the instrument to the next level. And of course, all the support so far has been amazing. Thank you all so much, I didn't expect this level of discussion and advice on my first ever TH post.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story of the student trumpet player who "doesnt use enough upper lip in the mouthpiece" is like a broken record. Allow me to explain. 8First of all the mouthpiece is just one half of a "pair of bookends". The other side being the front teeth. With the upper teeth being the dominant bookend if only due to the fact that the lower lip does not vibrate the air.

So I must question the soundness of any advice which leaves out from the equation the amount of upper lip flesh remaining below the upper teeth. In fact if I may I would like to challenge the knowledge of anyone advising a student of an embouchure change based solely upon the exterior appearance of the upper teeth relative to the mouthpiece.

The old adage "Well most of us have found that the 2/3rds upper lip in mouthpiece is best" does not fly. In fact plenty of trumpet players have succeeded by utilizing less than half of their mouthpiece filled with the upper lip. Indeed if we're going to advise an embouchure change? Then I submit that the teacher is obliged to explain his rationale. And this should include a definition of the usage of the teeth/mouthpiece "bookends" and their relevance to embouchure strength and performsnce.

Now lets talk statistics,

For every person Ive heard advised to put more upper lip into the m/piece Ive heard of more failures resulting than successes. Remember, if this teacher does not know how to explain the factors involved? And this would include the capacity of the teeth related bookend? Then it seems to me that his knowledge of embouchure isnt sufficient enough to advise such changes.

Whose to say that a better mouthpiece might fix this cat? There again however if this teacher doesnt understand the basics of embouchure? Then how can he expect to make a rational suggestion on mouthpieces either?

Many times we find freshman trumpet music majors effectively held hostage by a professor who insists that the student follow his suggestions. Or even if the student does choose not to change embouchure? And plays a mouthpiece of his own liking but not the prof's. Isnt the student basically violating the prof's directives? That and putting himself at risk of getting a poor grade from his own teacher?

Isnt the applied trumpet professor almost a little complicit in conflict of interest here? What I had to do when I was in college was to play one mouthpiece in my lessons to keep the man happy and then another mouthpiece to fulfill the demands of the gig.

Im not answering the o/p's question today. And doing so purposely. This because I share at least one thing in common with the professor,

Neither of us has asked the fellow about the positioning of his upper lip over his upper teeth. Since I dont know the answer to this? I can not make a judgment call. The main difference between myself and the prof here however is that I actually recommend that the question be answered first.

While the prof probably has no concept of the importance of the question.

The position of the upper lip against the upper teeth is a part if the "Two Aperture Theory". A 3-D appriach to embouchure.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaps of Faith wrote:
Do you have any recommendations for brass pedagogy literature or any books you found particularly helpful? I'm starting with Farkas' "The Art of Brass Playing" and trying to make sense of what the embouchure really is.


I think the best book on brass playing is Kristian Steenstrup's Teaching Brass. It wasn't around back then and you might not find the information you think that you're looking for, but if you want to understand how to get your body to do what it needs to do to play well, this is a pretty good starting point. It's a well organized explanation of Arnold Jacobs' teaching. We get so caught up in what the change is that we forget the most of the battle is getting our body to reliably accomplish that change.

I personally didn't find Farkas' explanations particularly helpful at the time (nor do I now), but the pictures are neat. In the end, you have develop some mental picture of what's happening. I would read everything I could with a somewhat critical eye. Everyone likes to point to the book or teaching or concept that finally helped them put it all together as the ultimate answer to everything; or they point to the dead end they're currently running down as the ultimate answer to everything. You need to develop a healthy mental concept that will carry you rather than chase some ultimate answer. Be careful that the received truths (here, from a book, or from a teacher) make sense and are useful. Absurd things can be matter of factly stated as truth.

If you decide buzzing is for you, remember that even the lips are a wind instrument.
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chrisfpate
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Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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Location: Greeley, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaps of Faith wrote:

chrispate: Thank you for the advice. It sounds very familar ;D are you an Adam method student by chance? My professor was one of his students at Indiana.


Yeah man, I did my undergrad there as well (not in Adam's time though). Adam and Cichowicz routines were the foundation of my playing there.

Hope all is well!

Chris
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