Intonation (playing in tune)

[trumpet56]

It would be interesting to know how to play in tune on the trumpet. Of course course there is equal temperament which can be worked on with the use of a tuner. But the aim of this post are exploring the trumpet techniques involved in playing in an ensemble.Tuning in this context relies heavily on where we are positioned in a chord. For example if we are playing the third in a major chord we need to flatten the pitch by up to 14 cents, or a third in a minor chord the pitch needs to be raised by approximately 16 cents. If we are playing the 7th then we flatten the pitch by 31 cents. My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure?

[starkadder]

[oxleyk]

[zaferis]

[Brad361]

[Richard III]

And then there is more. You are playing in a section of three. Do you conform to the section leader, the other section mate or the band when they are all slightly or more than slightly different. You get to know the section leader's idiosyncrasies. Do you follow them. But wait. He's wrong. The band is right. Right?

So now you're the section leader. You think you're perfect? Should you play perfect or sync with the band. What about the section that has the lead at that point and they are a little off. Fun stuff eh.

Yup. Listen.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[trickg]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon:

1.) Listen
2.) Adjust by whatever means necessary - lip it in, kick slides, etc

Most of the time intonation things can be handled by lipping it in, or with 1st and/or 3rd valve slide adjustments. If it's out further than that, then you need to adjust the tuning slide.

It's not rocket science - it just takes time and experience.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[omelet]

Standard practices regarding slide movement will get you close enough. The rest of the way just really depends on you making it sound good. It is more important to be in tune with the others versus trying to play in just temperament.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

[cheiden]

To the extent that I play in tune, I credit to my teacher. We did a lot of playing in unison with the occasional duet. And whenever I didn't match his intonation it was really obvious. So I got really good at listening and adjusting. Occasionally that meant employing slides but way more then not it meant being really strict with the lip, tongue, and air.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Derek Reaban]

Like Nonsense Eliminator, I think 14 cents flat is the wrong way to think about a major third using just intonation. I think it's better to say the pitch needs to be lowered by 14 cents with respect to equal temperament. You are playing in tune! The term Flat shouldn't enter the conversation!

If you are interested this topic from a number of years ago talks about theory in a fun way. The link towards the bottom of that folder to the Savings Bond post gives another way to look at intonation.

While knowledge is important, the insight to use your ears is the best advice.
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[dstdenis]

I played a series of rehearsals with the Atlanta Symphony Community Brass ensemble a few years ago. It's directed by Michael Moore, tubist with the ASO. In the first rehearsal, he made a speech about how he considered the most important requirement for sounding good is to play in tune. And by "play in tune," he meant using "just intonation."

I remember how members of the group kinda squirmed nervously in our seats when he said this, each person wondering if s/he were good enough to do this. But Mr. Moore spent much of the first rehearsal working on intonation exercises with us. To our amazement, we found out (1) we can do this! and (2) he's right, it sounds much, much better.

I don't think any of us worried about the mechanics of making the necessary adjustments. It was all about listening super-carefully to our individual sound and the sound of the group. The distance between where we normally play a particular note and where it needed to be for just intonation was generally very small, and I don't remember thinking about how to get there--each person's subconscious mind found a way.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[mm55]

[cheiden]

[Nonsense Eliminator]

[trickg]

Sometimes I wonder how these discussions get going.

Being "in tune" is relative to context. Does it really do any good to think about equal or just temperament if it continues to sound bad, or is the better answer to use your ear and adjust to make it sound right? If it doesn't ring, it's wrong.

Like NE says, if you are playing with an instrument with fixed/tempered intonation such as a piano or organ, you have to adjust to whatever that is, but in such as a wind ensemble, concert band or whatever, you listen down for general intonation, and you listen inward to your section.

Do you think singers really obsess about this kind of thing, or do you think they just use their ears and adjust?

It ain't rocket science. Use your ears. Make adjustments. The end.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[mm55]

"... the laws of physics dictate that it must ..."

I think that's not really true.

The "laws of physics" alone don't determine what sounds "right". If you're working in an equal-tempered environment, then equal-temperament will become your standard of what's "in tune". Forcing yourself to deviate from 12-TET in order to align harmonics can be a made-up compromise, and it can sound out of tune in 12-TET contexts. We are not limited to a simplified notion or what has a "basis in nature".

You can't change the laws of physics, but you can certainly change what sounds musically appropriate. The laws of physics don't control the art, any more than color theory can tell you what colors of paint you must use. Spectral analysis of phonetics doesn't dictate how poetry works. Transformational grammatical analysis is not the basis for literature.

Music is more art than science, usually.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg

[Lionel]

[mike ansberry]

I struggled with tuning for decades. I was constantly listening to my pitch and asking myself if I was sharp, flat, or in tune. I drove myself crazy. (yes, Tom Tapscott, crazy for me is really a short putt) Then one day in the 1990's I was playing in a brass quintet performance and we were locked dead in tune. I thought about what I was doing and I came to this conclusion which has helped me out since then.

Blowing the center of the horn (that would be done by keeping the embouchure and oral cavity in the correct position) and then audiating my part. (singing it in my brain while I play) When I do that successfully, I play in tune with the group.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

[cheiden]