B-Flat to C trumpet "Conversion"

[Ubungstickle]

So I have an old ytr-4335g, as my victim
When you have a c-trumpet next to a Bb, its not just the tuning slide cut down, all the other parts are smaller. Why is this? Cant you just cut off the tuning slide amount that just makes it a full step lower?

Should I cut my old trumpet up??

I mean I am doing this just for kicks
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Yamaha YTR-4335G Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Schilke P5/4 Picc

[trpthrld]

All slides are shorter - tuning, 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

The lead pipe is shorter.

The bell is usually shorter, too.

Most C trumpets are a Large bore, whereas most Bb's are ML's.

Cutting down just the tuning slide & lead pipe will work if you only intend to play open trumpet. One you push a valve down, those notes will be very flat (for C trumpet).

As most 1st & 3rd slides on trumpets are a combination of male /female tubes, you would need to cut down the respective tubes on the trumpet, not just the slides.

It's a bigger job than I think you realize, but who knows - if you experiment, you might come up with the perfect C trumpet!
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Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be

[Crazy Finn]

[LittleRusty]

If you don't care about the playability this is a rather trivial project, provided you have the math to calculate the slide lengths necessary.

You might want to try the search function. Some people prefer to use goolge to search the forum since the search is much better.

There have been numerous threads about this and I seem to remember one where a pro discussed what to do.

[Crazy Finn]

Good post Tim!
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[MrJackson]

wait a tic; you already have (if it's anything like mine) an AWESOME C.
My vote is, if you're gonna do it, do it right:
have fun with it, mess with heavy/sheet braces, try a tuning bell if you're REALLY ambitious, make it into a D (or, just for fun, a B-natural) instead of a C, etc.

If you compare your Bb to the C, not only are the slides shorter, but the placement of weight i.e. braces, the nub on the 3rd valve slide crook, etc is unique to the Chicago (it's the same on the 9335CH Bb) A good friend just got a Yamaha NY Bb and those specs are different than my Chicago. Just food for thought.
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Yamaha Chicago Bb
Yamaha Chicago C
Schilke E3L
Schilke P5-4 B/G

[DH]

I actually did this once.... still have the horn. I started with a cheap bad Bb and ended up with a nice cheap bad C.

I don't recall doing anything to the leadpipe, I think I just did the valve slides and and enough on the tuning slide to make up for not cutting the leadpipe.

[jvand678]

The reason for all the other slides needing to be a little shorter is due to basic physics. In order to drop a note 1/2 step, 6% (not the exact percentage by any stretch...) of the total length must be added to the original tubing. So we'll call the total length of the horn L. L x .06 + L = Total length of 1/2 step lower.

So hypothetically lets say that a Bb is 100 inches and a C is 90 inches. To play a C to a B on Bb trumpet would equal a total length of 106 inches making the 2nd valve slide 6 inches. The total length of the C trumpet for C to B would equal 95.4 inches making the second valve slide 5.4 inches. For first valve figures, you would take the total length of the B and multiply it by .06. (95.4 x .06) + 95.4 = 101.124. Then subtract 90 from this number to say that 1st valve must be 11.124 inches. So on and so forth...

So basically, without shortening all of the slides too, you'll end up with a horn that is slightly flat on every note that involves fingerings. If you're looking to just play around with the horn, have fun and good luck. If you're looking to make a player, consult the pros, measure 10 times and cut once!

best of luck,

JV

[ConnArtist]

[jvand678]

[rockford]

There's more to making a c trumpet than just slide lengths. There are different proportions in the bell shape too. There are plenty of inexpensive used C trumpets available. If you like working on instruments and want to cut down the Bb for fun then why not? If you're looking for a C trumpet to play I think the odds of an individual coming up with something that works better than Yamaha, Benge, Bach, Getzen, etc., is pretty slim.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

[Ubungstickle]

How would I go about cutting the slides down a little bit?
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Yamaha YTR-4335G Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Schilke P5/4 Picc

[ConnArtist]

[Crazy Finn]

[mcamilleri]

Please don't. The 4335 is a nice trumpet and deserves to have a playing life rather than get ruined. Give it to some kid that can't afford a decent trumpet or donate it to a musical instrument charity rather than ruin it. If you want to play at serious brass instrument mods then start with a wrecked trumpet, or a cheap indian/chinese horn.

Simply cutting the slides will likely give a C trumpet with poor intonation and response. There are several shops that do C trumpet conversions. They should be able to do nice job if you really want another C trumpet.

Michael
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Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[Ubungstickle]

I have actually managed to find a trumpet on sale for like
89 bucks or something

I guess I'll use that one
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Yamaha YTR-4335G Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Schilke P5/4 Picc

[mcamilleri]

Thank you!

You can learn a lot on that horn - brazing, soldering, dent removal, and just how easy it is to do major damage.

Somewhere out there on the web is a company that sells brass instrument repair tools. Anyone recall who they are?

Michael
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Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[ConnArtist]

[Capt.Kirk]

The total length of the slides has to change to do it properly. Doing it just on a basis of mathematics will get you close but not exactly their. You can not just cut down the leadpipe and tuning slide all the slides need to change length. THe one least effected is the shortest one the number 2 tuning slide. The general norm is for a 23 inch bell from rim to valve body. On the other hand 26-29 inch bells are the norm for Bb trumpets. The trumpet designers do not get the Bb trumpet right to start with hence the need to lengthen the first and third to get into tune. One can only lip about 15 cents but 40-60 scents is about how far off some trumpets are so that is why you extend the first and third slides at times so that you can get the note almost on pitch center. So even the Bb is not perfect.

If you are going to do this you at the very least need to get the math right for a C trumpet. If you have a good ear and a tuner you can tweak the math to get much closer to pitch center then the math alone will get you.

A good technician can convert a Bb to C and end up with a trumpet that is great. Some bells and leadpipes lend themselfs to this process more then other's. FOr instance the Olds Ambassador makes a great Bb to C conversion something about it's leadpipe and bell profile just lends itself to the process.

If you started out with the dimensions of another known C trumpet that would make a great starting point.In fact it would be very helpful if we had a list of say maybe Bach and Yamaha C trumpet bell and slide lengths from the valve block out to the apex of the slides and from the valve block all the way out to the bell flair tracing it's total length. It would not matter if the dimensions where in metric or SAE?!?!

I would imagine that doing a reversed leadpipe would help a lot on a Bb to C conversion as well. Having more leadpipe to work with usualy helps intonation.

Unlike many that poo-poo such conversions I have heard to many poor mans conversions from Bb to C done by competent technicians that sounded great! My Technician charges $500 to do this and their is a guy on Ebay that charges $375. I already have a Bronze Reynolds C trumpet bell that is going to be used to convert a spare valve block to C. I would rather spend $375-$500 and get a SEMI-CUSTOM trumpet out of the mix as opposed to dropping $2000+ on a new horn that mightnot play any better then a conversion.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[biophysics]

**Sorry if I'm reviving a dead thread on my first forum post.***

Just some background that may be relevant, may not be, who knows:

I have a B.A. in Musicology + B.S. Mathematics from an Ivy League university, then did a certificate program in Paris (Fr) in classical trumpet performance. I did some gigging for a few years when I returned to the states, but eventually decided I wanted to go to med school. I'm in the middle of an 8 year MD/PhD program and believe it or not, I have a little bit of spare time in my schedule now that I'm done with part 1 of MLEs and most of my formal coursework.

So I've been playing a bit recently and am thinking of getting a few gigs. Near the beginning of med/grad school I had some money troubles and had to sell a ton of stuff, including my car (whatever, I live in a city), Yamaha Xeno C, and my Schilke picc (since those two were my most valuable horns).

I still have a nice Getzen Flugelhorn, the Getzen Eterna 900 Bb I had from highschool, and an Allora pocket Bb a friend gave me ... that plays really well.

Now here's my thing, I'm keeping the flugel for jazz work and I'm honestly thinking about keeping the pocket as my main Bb horn ... I know it sounds silly, but for how little I play jazz / community band gigs, it seems pragmatic. Back when I sold my Picc, I used paypal and since you can only transfer 500 a month into a bank account, that lasted for a few months but i was left with an uneven $80 or something, so I found a never used Blackburn C leadpipe for $75. I picked that up having a possible conversion in mind for my trusty old Getzen 900 Eterna (since I had to sell my Yamaha C).

Now I have a bit of time and access to tools to do the conversion, I was wondering if anybody had specs for a standard Getzen C trumpet bell length? I'm planning on replacing the leadpipe to the Blackburn C, cutting the bell down to what a normal Getzen C bell is and then getting the rest of the length from the bottom of the main pipe going into the 3rd valve ... and of course, shaving a bit off the 1st and 3rd so it's not horribly out of tune.

My goal isn't necessarily to have something that rivals my old Yamaha, but hopefully it'll play about as well as when it was a Bb, and will serve me well for the years between now and when I'm done with school / residency / specialty / etc... and can afford to actually buy more equipment if I need or want.

I did a conversion before of the very old student King trumpet I used back in elementary/middle school. During college, I practiced taking it apart and putting it back together. When I was finally comfortable working with the horn, I did the math and cut it down into an Eb horn (bet you didn't see that coming).

I can't say it turned out well, considering it was an old, beat up, $200 student trumpet to begin with (not to mention the dimensions of the Bb are not meant to be chopped way down to Eb), but at least it played in Eb. The reason I did this was (1) to get experience working with trumpet assembly/repair and (2) to have an Eb I could practice on for my senior recital. I used my prof's trumpet during the recital and during lessons, but to practice, I used both my Bb and my chopped up Eb horn, so it was well worth the time and effort.

Needless to say, I'm planning on turning my Getzen into a C horn, so if anybody could measure their Getzen C horn and get those to me, I'd be very greatful ... or if anybody has some advice that hasn't been covered in this thread, again, that would be great.

Thanks, and I'll make sure to upload some pictures (or link to photobucket / facebook) of the horn when it's done in a week or two.