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Should I keep my Bach 37


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Does it need a whole valve job, or would having a tech lap/buff the valve and casing take care of whatever the issue might be?


Hi trickg

I have no idea. In the short time that Will Spencer spent with it, he felt that the valves were not overly worn and the compression was ok, so tried a gentle lapping to see whether it would bed in. It didn't. Will felt that the alternative was therefore a valve rebuild or fitting a replacement oversized piston. He didn't want to take on the job at the time owing to issues with his plater, so I tried another firm. I wanted a thorough assessment of the issue and a discussion before any work was carried out. I got a second lapping and the issue is still there. I really feel that what is needed is a thorough assessment. I have emailed Will Spencer again to see whether he would be happy to have another look at my trumpet, and am still awaiting his response.

Best wishes

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Brad361"]Do you need a C trumpet for “an upcoming orchestral gig”, or for orchestral gigS (plural)? Personally, I would not buy any horn for one gig, if that’s what you are saying here.

Hi Brad

I play weekly in an amateur symphony orchestra. All the parts are already transposed for Bb trumpet. There are slight issues, such as the cues not being on the transposed parts, or bar numbering issues owing to the numbering of repeats and first time/second time bars, but generally it works well.

I also plays a few times in a year in an associated orchestra, and the parts are not already transposed. Parts for D trumpet seems to be the most common followed by parts for C trumpet. Hardly any of the parts seem to be for a trumpet in Bb, and I've found that most of the transpositions are easier for a C trumpet than Bb.


Regarding your valve issues with the Bach: if that’s why it now primarily resides in a case, I would bite the financial bullet and costs of shipping it out to a good technician and just get it fixed. If you like the horn other than the valve problem (which I would not tolerate either), get it repaired. I think I remember you mentioning that you’ve made repair attempts, if those have not worked, send it to someone who is highly skilled; there are lots of guys who have been discussed here. It’s a valve problem, it’s not curing cancer.

Thanks very much for the above. Finding a repair technician is the issue. The guys who are generally discussed on here are in the US. I don't technically mind shipping to the US, but there are custom charge issues, with the custom charges being applied to the value of the item + repairs. I therefore have to pay custom charges on the value of my trumpet in addition to the value of the work carried out. Maybe there is a way round this, but it has happened to me twice already, with mouthpiece modifications. Maybe there is a way around it, but I don't know what, and previous telephone calls to customs have not come up with an answer. I suppose I could try again, but surely there must be someone in the UK who not only can do this work, but would be willing to do it for me.

Thanks again.

Take care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Lou,

First, nobody should take any advice from me regarding trumpet related issues.

Second, my financial advice is probably worse than my trumpet related advice.

Hi Grits

Thanks very much. My financial advice is pretty good lol, I used to work for a bank.


That said, I personally think that everybody should own a Bach Strad 37, and a Martin Committee, and a Benge CG, and a Lawler C7, and a Shires Destino III, and a Getzen Eterna cornet, and a Conn 80A, and a Schilke Piccolo, and an Inderbinen Wood Flugelhorn...

Sounds good to me!

Life is short. Buy ever horn you ever wanted and die happy.

If only. Shame that money is needed.

Warm regards,
Grits

Warm regards to you too.

Take care

Lou

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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

Don't Sell it, I've regretted the loss of my 37 ever since its been gone. That being said, Have you tried Alysyn Oil. It has worked for me many times when nothing else would help a sticky valve, Including trips to Dillons and Josh Landress. It even prevented a recommended valve job. Funny thing is i don't use it all the time, the valve doesn't stick at all anymore after using it for a few months, i'm using Lynzoil and Monster now, but keep some Alysyn around for emergencies. I'm not actually a 37 fan anymore, but found an old pic of me playing it from the 80's and it brought back those feelings of regret. Be patient, find the right guy to fix it and you'll be happy in the end that you kept it, good Luck !!

regards,

tom
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugh Anderson wrote:
Sleeved mouthpiece? Cornet or what you use on Bach 37?


Hi Hugh

Well the sleeved mouthpiece I used originally on my Xeno, was a UK tech who was just starting to make his own sleeve system's first attempt at sleeving a Kanstul B10 backbore to insert like a Bach trumpet mouthpiece. His sleeve inserts 25mm in my Bach and Yamaha trumpets rather than the 24mm of my 2005 Bach 3C, and coincidentally replicated the 25mm insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4. I experimented with Jim New's gap modulator, couldn't improve the gap, and now play on my Xeno, a James R New version of a standard Bach 10 backbore rather than Jim New's S backbore, with Jim New's 6.5 sleeve, which inserts just over 25mm and works great.

Take care

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinstriper wrote:
How about getting the Bach repaired, then spend some time deciding whether you prefer it or the Xeno ? Whichever one goes, pays for the C. You keep the one you really prefer.


Hi pinstriper

Thanks very much. I'm definitely keeping the Xeno, as I find it to be such a great trumpet for orchestral applications. I'd prefer to add a C and also keep my Bach, but if one has to go, it will have to be the Bach. I have previously been able to borrow a C trumpet in the past, and I imagine that this is still an option, since my colleague has two.

Take care

Lou
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjl wrote:
Well, I'm biased, but I'll keep my own Bach 37 (a 1979 model, similar in age to yours, I believe) and my same age Bach 239 even past the bitter end (which I may be at since I haven't played trumpet in months now).

Hi Joe

Thanks very much. I hope that you are ok in yourself and you have simply been too busy to play trumpet, rather than not sufficiently well.


But you're English. I thought your all's tradition was Bb trumpets in the orchestra?

Probably, I'm only doing amateur orchestral playing, but it would make sense to me to play parts for a trumpet in C on a C trumpet, and quite a few of the other transpositions are easier on C. All my orchestral playing is with the same other player, and he owns a Bb and two Cs. I have previously borrowed his spare C.

While I like my Bach C (with Blackburn 19-350 pipe and rounded tuning slide) a lot, I think that I could do an orchestra gig with the 37 quite easily.

Yes, I fully agree, and find the Xeno II even better.

For what it is worth.

-- Joe

Thanks very much again.

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
I got some sage advice one time from a departed trumpet master. He said, "Play whatever works and makes the right sound, but never sell your 7C." That said, the equivelent to that in the trumpet area is, "Play whatever you want, but never sell your Bach 37."

I know it isn't super serious, but maybe it is....I'll never sell my 37.

AL


Hi Al

Sounds good advice. I'll most probably keep it, and eventually fund a C another way. I've just got to get it repaired.

Take care

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KRELL1960 wrote:
Lou,

Don't Sell it, I've regretted the loss of my 37 ever since its been gone.

Hi Tom

Thanks very much.


That being said, Have you tried Alysyn Oil. It has worked for me many times when nothing else would help a sticky valve, Including trips to Dillons and Josh Landress. It even prevented a recommended valve job. Funny thing is i don't use it all the time, the valve doesn't stick at all anymore after using it for a few months, i'm using Lynzoil and Monster now, but keep some Alysyn around for emergencies. I'm not actually a 37 fan anymore, but found an old pic of me playing it from the 80's and it brought back those feelings of regret. Be patient, find the right guy to fix it and you'll be happy in the end that you kept it, good Luck !!

I have tried Alysyn oil in the past, but admittedly not on my Bach 37. I still have a bottle. I have a feeling sadly for you that it is now discontinued, but hopefully it isn't. I understand exactly what you mean by having an oil that you can use for a few months, which seems to solve the issue and allow you to return to your regular oil. My old standby for just this purpose is old fashioned stinky Holton. It seems to give a slower slightly soupy feeling valve action compared to my usual Yamaha synthetic light, but has done the trick for me in the past. It hasn't however so far worked for me on my Bach 37.

regards,

tom

Thanks very much again.

Take care

Lou

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Trumpets:
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Kanstul F Besson C
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi lou,

Alisyn still readily available here in the States, although i have quite a few bottles laying around the garage, so i should be good for years to come!

All the best with your 37 !!

regards,

tom
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KRELL1960 wrote:
Hi lou,

Alisyn still readily available here in the States, although i have quite a few bottles laying around the garage, so i should be good for years to come!

Hi Tom

I'm pleased to hear this.


All the best with your 37 !!

Many thanks.

regards,

tom

Best wishes

Lou

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Trumpets:
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

A few thoughts, in no particular order.

1. The Xeno was stuffy compared to the 37 until you sleeved the MP. Is it now more open than the Bach? (I've always thought most 37's were stuffy.) And I think one of the above posts you said you tried sleeving the MP on the Bach, but didn't improve it. You can open the blow of the Bach with a new leadpipe (I put a 25-O on my 43*) or with an unbraced slide from M/K Drawing. The advantage of the slide is that you won't permanently scar the horn. (I have one of these on the horn too.)

2. Yes, fixing the 1st valve correctly involves spending some money. I had the same problem on the 2nd valve of my mid-70's 43*. I was trying to decide whether to do a complete valve job (about as much money as the old horn was worth) or get a new horn. Skipping part of the story, I decided I wanted to play the horn. I figured I didn't have anything to lose, so I put some Brasso on the slide and worked the valve up and down for about 45 minutes, then gave the horn a good bath. That was 4 years ago and I'm still playing it. Yes, I'll have to do the valve job one of these days, but for now it's very usable. I don't know if Brasso is a US only thing, but I'm sure there's something similar in the UK.

3. My inclination, unless you have decided that you prefer the Xeno in all respects over the Bach, is to keep it. Look at it this way: If you sell it and come to regret it, you'll probably never be able to replace it for what you got. At least, not without looking for years. If you like everything about it except that valve, keep it.

My 2 cents.

John
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Morogan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to be the contrarian of the thread. =)

A trumpet that doesn't get played, for whatever reason, isn't a trumpet any more -- it's a sentimental heirloom, collectible, or a decoration (which is absolutely fine if that is what a person wants). I certainly understand the fear of future regret for selling it. However, given the low likelihood that the 1st valve situation will get rectified due to logistics/cost/unresponsive techs, then I would say in a few days, months or even years you will pull it out and play it in fond remembrance... only to rediscover the annoying sticky valve which led you to put it away in the first place. Rinse, repeat.

Now, on the other hand, if you feel there is a possibility that you may relocate or think that the chance of getting it fixed to your satisfaction could significantly improve, then holding onto it for a while makes it an investment for the future and that's cool, too. I suppose the decision also depends a bit upon how far in the future that chance may occur.

Full disclosure: I own an old Getzen Eterna Severinsen LB Model with red rot in the leadpipe which I played exclusively for about 15 years that's been waiting for restoration in my closet for the last 17 years. Sigh.

Seriously though, I wish you the best regarding your decision, and remember: there are a lot of trumpet fish in the sea out there and you will likely find better and better matches for you through the years as your career progresses. The older *I* get, the less I care to be annoyed by the idiosyncrasies of my instruments -- I just want to play.
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hackney_wick
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
trickg wrote:
Does it need a whole valve job, or would having a tech lap/buff the valve and casing take care of whatever the issue might be?


Hi trickg

I have no idea. In the short time that Will Spencer spent with it, he felt that the valves were not overly worn and the compression was ok, so tried a gentle lapping to see whether it would bed in. It didn't. Will felt that the alternative was therefore a valve rebuild or fitting a replacement oversized piston. He didn't want to take on the job at the time owing to issues with his plater, so I tried another firm. I wanted a thorough assessment of the issue and a discussion before any work was carried out. I got a second lapping and the issue is still there. I really feel that what is needed is a thorough assessment. I have emailed Will Spencer again to see whether he would be happy to have another look at my trumpet, and am still awaiting his response.

Best wishes

Lou

If that's the case, it's not doing you much good to keep it. You might be able to sell it at a discount to someone here stateside who might have better luck finding someone to do the valve work that needs to be done - you'd have to sell it at a discount though - I wouldn't buy a horn with a known valve issue unless I could get it low enough to make it worth my time and money to get it fixed.

All of this is unfortunate - it sounds to me like this is otherwise a really nice trumpet, and if it was in proper working order, would at least be the equivalent of the Xeno, or at least another option that could be used.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom wrote:
Lou,

Hi John

A few thoughts, in no particular order.

1. The Xeno was stuffy compared to the 37 until you sleeved the MP. Is it now more open than the Bach? (I've always thought most 37's were stuffy.)

Not really. Maybe it was a little before, but I've subsequently had the mouthpiece I play on my Bach sleeved, and they now play pretty similarly.

And I think one of the above posts you said you tried sleeving the MP on the Bach, but didn't improve it.

I didn't mention sleeving my mouthpiece for my Bach above, but have mentioned it previously. I apologise in advance for being wordy. Jim New sent me his No. 6, 6.5 and 7 sleeves to try on my Xeno. I found that his No. 6 sleeve pretty much replicated the 24mm insertion amount of my 2005 Bach 3C in both my Xeno and Bach 37 (mouthpieces insert equivalently in each), which surprised me a little as a UK tech who has measured my mouthpiece for previous mouthpiece work, said that my Bach 3C gives a gap on the larger side of those he has measured for Bach mouthpieces, and I thought that an average Bach mouthpiece gapped equivalently to a Reeves No. 5 sleeve. Whatever, since I was looking to increase the insertion amount to around 25mm, as determined via previous experimentation with Jim New's gap modulator, I went with the 6.5 sleeve on my Xeno, which inserts around 25mm.

Although mouthpiece insert the same amount in each, there are two differences between my two trumpets, one that my Xeno responds differently to changes in gap with there being a very definite sweet spot at an insertion amount of around 25mm, whereas my Bach 37 seems to work well with an insertion amount in the range of around 24.25 - 24.75mm, and two that I prefer a smaller gap on my Xeno than on my Bach. I don't think that this is necessarily me, as my preferred insertion amount on the Xeno replicates the insertion amount of a Yamaha mouthpiece.

Since according to the Bob Reeves website, there is a difference of 1/32" (0.79mm) between half sleeve sizes, I've had Jim New make me a 6.25 sleeve for my Bach, which inserts around 24.5mm and obviously between his 6 and 6.5 sleeves. I haven't been able to spend enough time on my Bach 37 to determine whether I prefer the around 24mm insertion amount of my original Bach 3C or the around 24.5mm insertion amount of the 6.25 sleeve, probably the latter, but either will work.


You can open the blow of the Bach with a new leadpipe (I put a 25-O on my 43*) or with an unbraced slide from M/K Drawing. The advantage of the slide is that you won't permanently scar the horn. (I have one of these on the horn too.)

Thanks very much, but I'm pretty happy with the blow of my Bach 37 with its existing leadpipe.

2. Yes, fixing the 1st valve correctly involves spending some money. I had the same problem on the 2nd valve of my mid-70's 43*. I was trying to decide whether to do a complete valve job (about as much money as the old horn was worth) or get a new horn. Skipping part of the story, I decided I wanted to play the horn. I figured I didn't have anything to lose, so I put some Brasso on the slide and worked the valve up and down for about 45 minutes, then gave the horn a good bath. That was 4 years ago and I'm still playing it. Yes, I'll have to do the valve job one of these days, but for now it's very usable. I don't know if Brasso is a US only thing, but I'm sure there's something similar in the UK.

Since this valve has already been lapped twice, I don't think that I should lap it further, but thanks very much for the suggestion. We have Brasso in the UK, and Silvo, so I know what you mean. I'm glad to hear that Brasso worked for you.

3. My inclination, unless you have decided that you prefer the Xeno in all respects over the Bach, is to keep it. Look at it this way: If you sell it and come to regret it, you'll probably never be able to replace it for what you got. At least, not without looking for years. If you like everything about it except that valve, keep it.

Thanks very much.

My 2 cents.

Which has been really appreciated.

John

Take care

Lou

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Trumpets:
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou

This may see, like a life or death decision, but it isn't. It's actually a very simple one, if a little brutal. Sell th damn 37, and be rid of this albatross!

First up, this 37 still doesn't work. Therefore it is USELESS. Like an old car, it's not worth having in the garage if you can't play it.

Second up, you have a Bb you like. The whole 'backup horn' is a load of codswollop. Your trumpet goes down, you get it fixed nad use something else, begged, borrowed or stolen for the interim.

Third, you can use some of the (low amount) of funds to get yourself into a C. That is a use of your cash, rather than leaving it stuck in a useless horn.

There you go! Easy, right?

Cheers

Andy
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Louise Finch"][quote="Brad361"]Do you need a C trumpet for “an upcoming orchestral gig”, or for orchestral gigS (plural)? Personally, I would not buy any horn for one gig, if that’s what you are saying here.

Hi Brad

I play weekly in an amateur symphony orchestra. All the parts are already transposed for Bb trumpet. There are slight issues, such as the cues not being on the transposed parts, or bar numbering issues owing to the numbering of repeats and first time/second time bars, but generally it works well.

I also plays a few times in a year in an associated orchestra, and the parts are not already transposed. Parts for D trumpet seems to be the most common followed by parts for C trumpet. Hardly any of the parts seem to be for a trumpet in Bb, and I've found that most of the transpositions are easier for a C trumpet than Bb.




[b]Thanks very much for the above. Finding a repair technician is the issue. The guys who are generally discussed on here are in the US. I don't technically mind shipping to the US, but there are custom charge issues, with the custom charges being applied to the value of the item + repairs. I therefore have to pay custom charges on the value of my trumpet in addition to the value of the work carried out. Maybe there is a way round this, but it has happened to me twice already, with mouthpiece modifications. Maybe there is a way around it, but I don't know what, and previous telephone calls to customs have not come up with an answer. I suppose I could try again, but surely there must be someone in the UK who not only can do this work, but would be willing to do it for me.

Thanks again.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Hi Lou,

Two suggestions: even though he is not a valve specialist per se, have you talked to Andy Taylor?

Or maybe you could contact someone in the states like Doctor Valve (Steve Winans), he or another well known tech may be able to recommend a good valve technician in the UK.

I realize there could be financial issues, but it seems a shame to sell a good horn that you like because of a problem like this; it’s definitely fixable.

Brad
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morogan wrote:
Allow me to be the contrarian of the thread. =)

Hi Morogan

Thank you very much.


A trumpet that doesn't get played, for whatever reason, isn't a trumpet any more -- it's a sentimental heirloom, collectible, or a decoration (which is absolutely fine if that is what a person wants). I certainly understand the fear of future regret for selling it. However, given the low likelihood that the 1st valve situation will get rectified due to logistics/cost/unresponsive techs, then I would say in a few days, months or even years you will pull it out and play it in fond remembrance... only to rediscover the annoying sticky valve which led you to put it away in the first place. Rinse, repeat.

This sadly is what does happen!

Now, on the other hand, if you feel there is a possibility that you may relocate or think that the chance of getting it fixed to your satisfaction could significantly improve, then holding onto it for a while makes it an investment for the future and that's cool, too. I suppose the decision also depends a bit upon how far in the future that chance may occur.

I think it is very unlikely that I'll relocate outside of the UK, so it will be a case of finding a very good and reliable UK tech.

Full disclosure: I own an old Getzen Eterna Severinsen LB Model with red rot in the leadpipe which I played exclusively for about 15 years that's been waiting for restoration in my closet for the last 17 years. Sigh.

Seriously though, I wish you the best regarding your decision, and remember: there are a lot of trumpet fish in the sea out there and you will likely find better and better matches for you through the years as your career progresses. The older *I* get, the less I care to be annoyed by the idiosyncrasies of my instruments -- I just want to play.

Being an admittedly very enthusiastic amateur but an amateur none the less,
I have no career to progress. Even though I'm 43 and have been playing 23 years, I feel that I have made quite a big leap forward lately in my playing,
and some of this I put down to sticking to one trumpet and one cornet set-up. Additionally, last time I was this happy with my trumpet playing, I was also playing a Yamaha, the YTR-6335HGII which I have always regretted selling. As much as I like my Bach, I've never been quite a confident on it as I have been the Yamahas. Maybe it is just coincidence, as although I now play a Yamaha Xeno cornet, I had a lot of success with my Bach 184ML for many years. I wonder if most of it has simply been mouthpiece gap, as the Bach 7C I used on my previous Yamaha trumpet coincidentally gaps how I've dialled in a 3C on my Xeno II, whereas I believe that I played my Bach 37 with a too large gap for me for years, owing to a switch to a 3C that inserted less far, and not yet having experimented with gap.

I just want to play too, and have also become less interested in the playing characteristics of my instruments, being confident that I'll dialled them in to best suit me already, and what is now needed is a good consistent daily practice routine.

Thanks again.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hackney_wick wrote:
"Decisions decisions. Please let me know what you think."

It seems to bug you that the Bach is lying around unused. Your relationship with it does not seem entirely relaxed and comfortable. You have a good all round Yamaha that you like and a back up. So get rid of the Bach. Then it won't bug you any more. Or do you love it, really?

Some people hang on to everything some get rid of everything, most people in-between. Ask yourself where you stand.

Personally I get rid of everything whenever possible and never regret it. But only you know where you stand.


Hi hackney_wick

Thanks very much. Something to think of.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
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