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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: Suggestions for new mouthpiece (HELP!!!) |
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Hi there!
I've been struggling to find a good mouthpiece for a while now, so what better place is there to come to than here, to ask for suggestions!
I am no trumpet virtioso, and currently play on a (Yamaha mearsurment) 16d which is roughly the same as a bach 1 1/2 c with a deeper cup. I play this because I have substantially large lips, so this fits snugly. However, my range and endurance suffer a lot than when playing a standard 7c, yet I cannot seem to get through a passage on the 7c without bottoming out.
To cut to the chase, I am looking for a new mouthpiece which increases my endurance and range in the upper register (to be used when on lead in a jazz band), but still has a deeper cup than a 7c preferably. A possible candidate for choosing is a bach 8 1/2b, but I cannot really understand all the mouthpiece grading systems as well as I'd like to. I also cannot stress enough that I am not looking for a magical fix to all my playing problems, but just a good lead mouthpiece for a fat lip like me
Any ideas? _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day.. |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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You need a good teacher, not a mouthpiece.
Speak to:
Mike Smith (tampa)
Roger Ingram (chicago?)
Bryan Davis (nyc)
Chris LaBarbera (boca raton)
Rich Willey (not sure where)
The above I recommend with personal experience. I'm not snubbing loads of supeb teachers.
Best,
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2326 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I see this is your first post... I'll give the benefit of the doubt that you're not just posting to get your 5 posts to get to the Marketplace...
"Bottoming out" in a 7C bothers me.. regardless of the thickness of your lips, that much intrusion is a problem in itself.
Bach 7's might be too small for you but I would suggest that the 16D (Yamaha?) is too big and you've grown accustom to letting your chops "fall" into the cup.
Bach 3c, Yamaha 14B4 or 14C4, Curry 3C or 3B or a multitude of other mid-size mouthpieces THEN a teacher to make sure you're approaching play in a good fashion.
For playing lead, a somewhat (not drastically) shallower piece is where most of us go but can be accomplished without that assistance.
My suggestion is to stay with a "C" cup (pick your maker) and train the embouchure. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
A deeper mpc than the 7C for lead?
In your case, i d rather try a Yam. 14B4 or, more specialized for lead, a 14A4a, knowing that shallow mpcs need another aperture compared to deeper cups.
Best |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | I see this is your first post... I'll give the benefit of the doubt that you're not just posting to get your 5 posts to get to the Marketplace...
"Bottoming out" in a 7C bothers me.. regardless of the thickness of your lips, that much intrusion is a problem in itself.
Bach 7's might be too small for you but I would suggest that the 16D (Yamaha?) is too big and you've grown accustom to letting your chops "fall" into the cup.
Bach 3c, Yamaha 14B4 or 14C4, Curry 3C or 3B or a multitude of other mid-size mouthpieces THEN a teacher to make sure you're approaching play in a good fashion.
For playing lead, a somewhat (not drastically) shallower piece is where most of us go but can be accomplished without that assistance.
My suggestion is to stay with a "C" cup (pick your maker) and train the
embouchure. |
Thanks for the in depth reply. I think you may be on some right lines there, with regards to bottoming out. I may give a yammy 14b4/c4 a try, and see if I can do some lip pressure and embouchure excercises on it _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day..
Last edited by Iplaythetrumpet on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | Hello,
A deeper mpc than the 7C for lead?
In your case, i d rather try a Yam. 14B4 or, more specialized for lead, a 14A4a, knowing that shallow mpcs need another aperture compared to deeper cups.
Best |
Thanks for the reply, yet I've tried playing on a 14a4a, and couldn't get past a b above the staff. I may well coin out a bit and try the 14b4 _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day.. |
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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | http://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-dictate-your-mouthpiece-choice/
Check out this info by Phyllis Stork. She knows her stuff.
"Chops flat, corners firm, AIR ON." Leon Merian |
Thanks for the useful link, it has certainly made me realise that I do indeed have unnaturally large and fleshy lips! _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day.. |
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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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bach_again wrote: | You need a good teacher, not a mouthpiece.
Speak to:
Mike Smith (tampa)
Roger Ingram (chicago?)
Bryan Davis (nyc)
Chris LaBarbera (boca raton)
Rich Willey (not sure where)
The above I recommend with personal experience. I'm not snubbing loads of supeb teachers.
Best,
Mike |
I can only dream of having some of these guys teaching me! I may try and find someone for a one off lesson. Thanks for the suggestions too _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day.. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Iplaythetrumpet wrote: | JVL wrote: | Hello,
A deeper mpc than the 7C for lead?
In your case, i d rather try a Yam. 14B4 or, more specialized for lead, a 14A4a, knowing that shallow mpcs need another aperture compared to deeper cups.
Best |
Thanks for the reply, yet I've tried playing on a 14a4a, and couldn't get past a b above the staff. I may well coin out a bit and try the 14b4 |
To play a shallow mpc, you need some time practicing on it (weeks, months), and work on aperture control, because you'll have to open up more the aperture (and then, like said Mike Bach again -hi Mike - a lesson wth a great teacher like these ones would be very useful).
I know that at some point, a mpc is too shallow, for whoever. I think too that a 14B4 may not be the better mpc for lead.
If after some right practice on the 14A4a, it's still too shallow, try some brand that offer various cup depths, once you found the right ID.
Marcinkiewicz has great ones : look at those with an ID superiour than 16.81mm (sup. to Shew's), knowing Marcinkiewicz have different measurement : for instance, Vizzutti, Tyzik, Baptist, Fidley, Klein, Joe Marcinkiewicz, Alpert, etc. models. THey have different cup depths.
In warburton too.
Or Dario Frate, these including a lot for combinations (rim shapes, throats, bb, etc)
best |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Conventional wisdom: choose an appropriate rim inner-diameter to get a good fit for your lips—smaller diameter for smaller lips, larger diameter for larger lips. Then choose cup depth for the kind of tone and support you want—shallower cup for a brighter sound and more support in the upper register, deeper cup for a fuller, heavier sound at the expense of range and endurance.
So the 16 rim might be okay for you (I don't know, I haven't seen your face), but the deep D cup isn't helping you with range/endurance or to get a brighter sound. If I were you, I'd check out the article from Phyllis Stork that Ed Kennedy mentioned (actually, I did that several years ago, and she helped me a lot). Once you've identified a reasonable rim inner-diameter fit, try mpcs with shallower cups to get the sound and support you're looking for. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | Conventional wisdom: choose an appropriate rim inner-diameter to get a good fit for your lips—smaller diameter for smaller lips, larger diameter for larger lips. |
Conventional wisdom is wrong. IMO. While it may hold true for some, it is definitely no rule.
Hey Joan-Vincenç!!! PS talking with Jim New about an Ingram with a Warb 7 USA rim
Best,
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Iplaythetrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 15
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. I think I will have a revised look on my embouchure, and consider trying to borrow a 14A4a for a bit, just to see if I can cope with it and/or if it makes any difference. Also, thanks for the link to the Phyllis Stork website, its cleared a lot up for me around the mysteries of mouthpieces!
I'll also persevere with my 7c, just to see if I can make any difference with my sound
Thanks again for all the replies, _________________ A wannabe trumpet player-I'll get there some day.. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think you'd do better to try some of the more common Yamaha pieces like the 16C4, 15C4, 14C4,... You may find the smaller ID helps. And you might find the flatter "4" rim a better fit, many do.
The 14A4a is a highly specialized piece. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone in your situation.
Regarding the 7C, there are plenty of reasons not to like it but bottoming out isn't one of them. I'm guessing that there's something else going on. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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bach_again wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | Conventional wisdom: choose an appropriate rim inner-diameter to get a good fit for your lips—smaller diameter for smaller lips, larger diameter for larger lips. |
Conventional wisdom is wrong. IMO. While it may hold true for some, it is definitely no rule. |
This conventional wisdom was advocated by William Vacchiano and is advocated by Phyllis Stork. I respect their knowledge and expertise. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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i agree with Mike "Bach again".
I think the choice of the ID or mpc size has more to do with labial/facial musculature and teeth.
Your embouchure, tongue placement or tongue technic (tongue arching, KTM for instance), have too a pretty important influence.
i know big lip trumpet players playing on medium or small sizes, and very thin lips players playing on Bach 1 size
best |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:31 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I think you'd do better to try some of the more common Yamaha pieces like the 16C4, 15C4, 14C4,... You may find the smaller ID helps. And you might find the flatter "4" rim a better fit, many do.
The 14A4a is a highly specialized piece. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone in your situation.
Regarding the 7C, there are plenty of reasons not to like it but bottoming out isn't one of them. I'm guessing that there's something else going on. |
+1!
If you, indeed do bottom out, why not try a V -cup? Solved my problem. Then there is the rim factor; rounded or flatter? Personally I can´t use flatter rims - a variable you may have to figure out. Fleshy lips and flatter rims? I doubt that combination - might prevent adequate "flapping"?? Or? _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:08 am Post subject: |
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bach_again wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | Conventional wisdom: choose an appropriate rim inner-diameter to get a good fit for your lips—smaller diameter for smaller lips, larger diameter for larger lips. |
Conventional wisdom is wrong. IMO. While it may hold true for some, it is definitely no rule.
|
I tend to agree with you, Mike - I've spent time in both camps, but I'm not convinced that anything more than broad-stroke patterns apply.. or atleast, not in a sense that's useful to a layman.
There's a few pitfalls that (*I think*) might lead to such rules being potentially unhelpful...
It's one thing for someone like Phyllis to see a pattern in what she's fitting people for, it's another thing for people to prescribe themselves a big size because they think they've got big lips - in the former case, you've got someone who's used to fitting people and is much more aware of where on the fleshy scale a given set of lips would lie (and knows what to look for when trying out a couple of different best-guesses on the basis of lip shape), and on the other you've got a player who often doesn't really know how to test out a few mouthpieces, doesn't know how big their lips are relative to others and doesn't know what size would be likely to correspond.
And this is granting that there's a definite pattern at all... how strong is the correlation in the first place?
Is the correlation between rim size and ID stronger than between playing style and ID? |
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steevo Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 454
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Just adding my $0.02.
Lessons: This is the best investment you can possible make. You don't need a big name to learn from. Regular lessons are best, but even a one-off lesson will be of benefit. By the way, there are teachers that will do Skype lessons. Take a few lessons, listen, learn and practice.
Hardware: An idea to consider is that there is no one perfect mouthpiece. Many have spent lifetimes on their "mouthpiece safari", few have emerged from the jungles with their prize. Many who have believed they found "the one", later became disappointed and returned to their safari. Personally, I use three or four different mouthpieces, all with a similar rim but with varying amounts of compression. What works for others won't necessarily work for you.
Lessons: Yeah, I am mentioning this again. I can't say it enough. Take lessons. Practice. Repeat. |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | I see this is your first post... I'll give the benefit of the doubt that you're not just posting to get your 5 posts to get to the Marketplace...
"Bottoming out" in a 7C bothers me.. regardless of the thickness of your lips, that much intrusion is a problem in itself.
Bach 7's might be too small for you but I would suggest that the 16D (Yamaha?) is too big and you've grown accustom to letting your chops "fall" into the cup.
Bach 3c, Yamaha 14B4 or 14C4, Curry 3C or 3B or a multitude of other mid-size mouthpieces THEN a teacher to make sure you're approaching play in a good fashion.
For playing lead, a somewhat (not drastically) shallower piece is where most of us go but can be accomplished without that assistance.
My suggestion is to stay with a "C" cup (pick your maker) and train the embouchure. |
+ 1
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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