• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

All around vs classical vs jazz


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BobD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 1251
Location: Boston MA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: All around vs classical vs jazz Reply with quote

I just picked up an 8335IIS for a sweet price. I like the horn. It plays VERY in tune and the valve and slides work great. I bought it because I wanted a horn that can fit into various, hopefully future venues. While doing a bit of research here I found that some people would say a Xeno is better for classical than jazz and that something like an 8310Z is better for jazz than classical.

This puzzles me because I've seen Wynton on a Bach playing jazz, Randy Brecker plays an 8335, Enrico Rava plays a Bach, Roy Hargrove played a Bach.

So is there really any validity to calling a horn a jazz horn or classical horn?
_________________
Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Nicholas Payton plays a Bach. It depends more on your sound concept than the genre. Chris Botti sounds pretty dark on his Martin Comittee with a vintage Bach 3 mouthpiece. I've known a few lead players that play on Bach ML 37s and others on Calicchios, Schilkes, Yamahas (Shew and LA). So what horn facilitates the sound in your head and allows you to get around the way you like?

BTW for me that would be a '72 vintage Getzen Severinson and a Bob Reeves 42M mouthpiece.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that some horns are designed with a specific purpose in mind, and I also think that some horns are better at being crossover horns than others.

I had a Schilke B6. Nice horn for revving it up in the wedding band, but not so good in a brass ensemble such as a brass quintet.

I've got a Jupiter 1600i Roger Ingram. Again, nice horn for the wedding band, passable in a brass ensemble, but I never really cared for the sound in a church setting.

Right now I'm no a Bach Strad 37 with a Blackburn leadpipe, and this may just be the best all-around horn I've ever used. With a bigger mouthpiece it's round, warm, and has that classic "Bach sound." With that in mind, the Blackburn leadpipe allows me to rev it up with a smaller mouthpiece, and it has worked out excellently thus far with the wedding band.

A horn is pretty much what you make it though, and at the end of the day the only people who are really going to notice or care are other trumpet players.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 1251
Location: Boston MA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A horn is pretty much what you make it though, and at the end of the day the only people who are really going to notice or care are other trumpet players.


Yeah, that's pretty much my thought on it. I would think a good Bach or Xeno should be able to cover most genre with a change of mpc and/or playing style.
_________________
Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2641
Location: vista ca

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronald romm played at B6 in the canadian brass i think. I would think the B6 is kind of taylor made for brass quintet.

All of this is of course dependant on what somebody wants from a horn, or how diferent horns happen to work for them. Just like mouthpieces, everyone is different. Lots of choices out there which is great.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Pete
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 1739
Location: Western Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can use my 8310Z and my Bach 43* for just about anything that I do. It really comes down to what mouthpiece I am playing on for specific things. The 8310Z is really adaptable to many different situations IMHO.

Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2157
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: All around vs classical vs jazz Reply with quote

BobD wrote:
....So is there really any validity to calling a horn a jazz horn or classical horn?

No.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8967
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to run against the grain on this. IMO, yes.

While there is a lot to be said about mouthpiece choice, what you hear personally, i.e. your sound-concept, etc, some horns are made with a certain sound in mind.

If you want to compensate with mpc choice, etc, it sort of neutralizes the trumpet's end result, but that does not change its inherent core sound. Some instruments just have more inherently non-legit sounds to them and vice-versa.

That's not to say that some instruments are more adaptable than others. But like I said, this sound can be neutralized by a number of circumstances, but that changes the end result, not the core sound.

IMO, LOL.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brent
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: 8335 Reply with quote

You can play anything with that horn, IMO.

Yamahas get maligned from time to time on this website, but their playability, along with the list of pros using them, speaks for itself.
_________________
Brent


Last edited by Brent on Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
ronald romm played at B6 in the canadian brass i think. I would think the B6 is kind of taylor made for brass quintet.

All of this is of course dependant on what somebody wants from a horn, or how diferent horns happen to work for them. Just like mouthpieces, everyone is different. Lots of choices out there which is great.

For me with the B6, I think that there were two factors that didn't help me.

One was that I was in a section of Bachs and Yamahas, and there are some distinct design differences. While I have always believed that the intonation on a Schilke is superior to that of a Bach, they have different intonation quirks, so I had to work to push the horn out of tune with itself so that I could be in tune with the other players. I know that sounds odd, but it creates some timbre and blend differences as well.

The second issue is that I tend to have a bright sound anyway, so any time I was pushing the horn, it would start to light up.

The last issue is that for me, the slotting on that horn was loosey-goosey, although some of that came about after I had it Reeves aligned. I remember it being tighter slotting before that.

I used a B6 exclusively for 10 years though, so like I said before, most of the time the only people who notice or care are other trumpet players.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
ronald romm played at B6 in the canadian brass i think. I would think the B6 is kind of taylor made for brass quintet....


The story I heard, when I was working at Schilke, was that the B6 was designed for and with a New York freelancer who was playing with a touring ballet orchestra. I think his name was Mitch Jellen (sp?). He may have been the guy who introduced Bill Chase to the B6. The story is that Chase had a romantic interest with one of the dancers and they talked shop and Chase ended up playing the B6.

At one time the entire Canadian brass was playing Schilke instruments. The trumpets were stock and the other instruments started out as Yamaha but were heavily customized in consultation with the CB members. Sothere you have it, classical or jazz/lead. BTW Jon Faddis and Tomasz Stanko both played the B6.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 1251
Location: Boston MA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent said:
Quote:
You can play anything with that horn, IMO.


Which horn?
_________________
Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: All around vs classical vs jazz Reply with quote

BobD wrote:
I just picked up an 8335IIS for a sweet price. I like the horn. It plays VERY in tune and the valve and slides work great.

Congrats!
BobD wrote:
I found that some people would say a Xeno is better for classical than jazz and that something like an 8310Z is better for jazz than classical.

Well, there are a few different configurations of Xeno II, and they sound and play different. The one I have (ML bore, std leadpipe, yellow brass bell) works equally well for both classical and jazz. I say that because it can be played with a variety of sounds and is easy to play—well, as easy as it gets with trumpet, anyway—a fantastic all-around horn.
BobD wrote:
So is there really any validity to calling a horn a jazz horn or classical horn?

Some jazz soloists might prefer an instrument with a dark, mellow sound to help them play music with a soulful, intimate feel. I think it would be hard to make such an instrument work in a classical setting though, which often calls for a brilliant sound (Shostakovich's Festive Overture, for example) and other times a more mellow, calm sound (Copland's Variations on a Shaker Melody, for example). But I think there are lots of all-around trumpets that can be played successfully in classical and jazz.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brent
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: 8335 Reply with quote

Hi Bob:

I was referring to the horn you just bought.

IMO: having a horn that is responsive, plays evenly throughout the registers, and plays in tune, those things are the most important factors. I worry less about a horn having a particular sound to it. When I hear recordings of the masters, like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, etc, they often used different horns, and they always still sounded like themselves.


Brent
_________________
Brent
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8967
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: 8335 Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
When I hear recordings of the masters, like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, etc, they often used different horns, and they always still sounded like themselves.


This is often said, but doesn't it ignore the variety of mics, sound boards, technicians' ears, as well as varying equipment to affect the sound? That a player sounds exactly "like himself"?

Don't a player's articulations and phrasing have a great, if sometimes subtitle, effect on the player's "sound" that we often hear as the player's sound, when it is, in fact, his articulations etc. a listener is actually hearing?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it goes beyond that. Because the pitch of brass instruments can be pushed up or down, every player places their notes in a certain part of the pitch, whether it's the high side or the low side. There are also subtle differences in inflection, how they push through one phrase or pull through another, subtle things with vibrato, etc. It's much more than just their timbre or articulation.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: All around vs classical vs jazz Reply with quote

BobD wrote:
I just picked up an 8335IIS for a sweet price.

Hi BobD

Congratulations on your new trumpet. That you bought it for a good price is an added bonus.


I like the horn. It plays VERY in tune and the valve and slides work great.

I'm very glad to hear that you like it. Intonation is indeed very good on the Xeno II, and mine also has good valves and slides.

I bought it because I wanted a horn that can fit into various, hopefully future venues. While doing a bit of research here I found that some people would say a Xeno is better for classical than jazz and that something like an 8310Z is better for jazz than classical.

Please don't let my views on my trumpets influence you in anyway. My Xeno II is a great all-around trumpet, and I am currently using it for everything. Yes, I do personally feel that mine (I have a lacquered one, I don't know if this makes a difference) is a great orchestral trumpet and an adequate jazz horn, but maybe that says more about my personal taste. I'm not really a jazz player, and am predominantly a brass band cornet player. I tend to play very cleanly and accurately. Although I feel that I am an expressive cornet soloist, my solo skills are more around phrasing and rubato, than bending into the notes and other jazz solo techniques, and although I can play Jazz ballads nicely, I am rather straight in approach. I find the Xeno II to have a fairly narrow focused clean sound with lots of core, very even response and fairly secure slotting. Although I really like these characteristics for orchestral playing, considering my playing style, I feel that this trumpet comes across as very orchestral sounding in my hands, and is a little on the rigid side and rather slotty, and I feel that I have to fight it a little to get it to respond how I want for more commercial playing, especially swing. For jazz, I'd prefer a responsive, flexible looser slotting trumpet with a bigger broader sound profile. Possibly something along the lines of a light-weight 72 bell is what I have in mind.

This puzzles me because I've seen Wynton on a Bach playing jazz, Randy Brecker plays an 8335, Enrico Rava plays a Bach, Roy Hargrove played a Bach.

So is there really any validity to calling a horn a jazz horn or classical horn?

Probably not, but there are probably trumpets with playing characteristics more suited to one or the other. My understanding of the Bach 180ML models, is that the 43 bell and light-weight 72 bell are possibly more commerically orientated than the 37, but that in reality there are loads of players using all the bells in quite distinct settings. I don't feel that Bach would make the commercial model or Yamaha, the Shew Jazz or LA, if they thought that there wasn't a market for a trumpet with more commercial playing characteristics.

My opinion regarding the Xeno II, at least my lacquered one, is that although it is a very good all-around trumpet like the Bach 37, the Xeno II sits further towards the classical end than the Bach 37. Maybe that it just my opinion.

The Xeno will do everything, and is a great all-around trumpet.

Enjoy yours.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob D

I thought that I would also post here what I put on my thread about my Bach 37. I apologise to those who have already seen it on my other thread:

I decided to play test my lacquered Yamaha 8335 Xeno II against my Bach 37 in my Jazz band. We played The Man I Love, Stars Fell on Alabama, Autumn in New York, Charmaine, In a Sentimental Mood and Ain't Misbehavin'. There are normally three of us on trumpet, but it was just me tonight, so I played Stars Fell on Alabama and Ain't Misbehavin', which are usually played by my colleagues, and it was basically a night of playing the melody either predominantly or for sections.

Since we play each number twice, I alternated between my two trumpets, starting each time with the Yamaha, and asked for the opinion of the other players at the end.

When I bought my Bach 37 used around ten years ago, I was playing lead in an old-time dance band, waltzes, fox trots, quick steps, latin etc, so not your typical big band lead playing. Leigh at Eclipse helped me to pick out this Bach. I've hardly played it for two years, owing to the 1st valve issue.

Anyway, as much as I like the sound and even response of my Yamaha, it was immediately obvious to me that my Bach was the better trumpet in this setting. Although the response is not so even as on my Yamaha, my Bach is quicker to respond and is a very lively flexible trumpet. Ain't Misbehavin' in particular, was noticeably easier to play on my Bach, as it responded so easily to what I wanted to do in terms of sound and approach, whereas I felt that I was having to fight my Yamaha.

I asked my colleagues which trumpet they liked best, and all apart from one, who is mainly an orchestral player, chose the Bach. In the words of the trombone player, the Bach sounded more Jazzy.

Maybe this only applies to my particular Bach 37 and my particular Xeno II. Since the Xeno IIs are probably a lot more consistent that Bach 37s, especially considering the number of years during which Bach 37s have been made, maybe this applies particularly to a lacquered Xeno II, as everyone else on here who has a Xeno II, seems to have one in silver.

Anyway, I thought that this may be of interest. Even though I felt that I was having to fight my Yamaha when the Bach did it easily, the Yamaha was still perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I just had to work harder than on my Bach.

In orchestral settings, my Xeno II is simply great. I admittedly haven't tried the Yamaha New York or Chicago Artist models, but if they are better than my Xeno II, then they must be superb, as there is nothing I don't like about my Xeno II in orchestral settings.

Regarding my Bach, it is good for orchestral playing rather than great. It is however in my opinion a better orchestral trumpet than the lacquered Xeno II is a Jazz trumpet, and I stick with my original opinion that the Bach 37 is the more versatile of the two and sits in the middle as a very good all-around trumpet, whereas although still a very good all-around trumpet, my lacquered Xeno II leans towards the orchestral end.

I really hope that this will be of some interest.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Manuel de los Campos
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 649
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: All around vs classical vs jazz Reply with quote

BobD wrote:
So is there really any validity to calling a horn a jazz horn or classical horn?


No.

My first trumpet teacher played a Conn Connstellation, he was pricipal trumpet player in the Dutch Ballet Orchestra
Fritz Damro playes a 6310Z in the Dutch Concertgebouw Orchestra
Oda von Hecke plays a 6310Z in the Dutch Philharmonic Orchestra

On the other hand I know many Dutch jazzplayers who uses Bach trumpets

You should find out which trumpet makes you play the best so you can perform with the least efford, don't stick on a brand
_________________
Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bria Skonberg just won an award for "best jazz trumpet player" of the year. She plays a new Bach 43 with a Bach 3C.

So apparently you can do just fine playing jazz on a Bach.
_________________
Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group