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Producing a dark sound


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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Producing a dark sound Reply with quote

How do you guys with naturally bright sounds create a dark sound when necessary?

Yes, I have left this question open ended because I'm looking for any kind of answer. A different way of thinking, an exercise, specific mouthpiece qualities, a book, etc.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have any examples of players you consider have bright or dark sounds?

I ask because we all have our own ideas about bright vs dark sounds.
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cradugamer
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My tone was extremely bright a couple of years ago.
After purchasing a heavy trumpet and a 1 1/2c mouthpiece, my tone was much darker than it was (but still not dark enough!)
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We each have our own unique natural sound. Mine is naturally bright. I never try to alter the natural way I play to produce a brighter or darker sound. If I want a brighter sound I use equipment designed to produce a brighter sound. If I want a darker sound I use equipment designed to produce a darker sound. That being said, I don't get a dramatically brighter or darker sound regardless of the equipment I use. The differences fall in a rather narrow range.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen. Have an image in your head (ear) of what you want to emulate.
Practice.
Posture - high open chest, like an opera singer and open up/relax your oral cavities
Long tones, Flow Studies, Clarke Studies - soft and smooth.
You should be working tone in everything you practice and perform-never stops.

Then equipmnent.. I'd tell you Bach, but really, this is probably the smaller portion of the answer.
Bach 19037 Anniversary Model, and a mouthpiece in the 3C - 1.5c range (Bach, Curry, Pickett, Yamaha.. whatever fits you)
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just back off and don't push the sound. Think "calm-and-easy." This might not produce a super dark sound—you probably won't be mistaken for a flugel—but it will contrast nicely with the brighter sound you get when you push the sound more aggressively. (I think Nicholas Payton does a great job getting contrasting sounds like this.)
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derekthor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Dark" sounds are over-rated. I recall a masterclass at UT-Austin given by Paul Merkelo where this subject came up.

P.M. "You have a very dark sound."
Student "Thank you"
P.M. "That wasn't a compliment. A sound that's too dark is lifeless and dull."

I'll also second the comment about different players having different ideas of what constitutes dark and bright. Find a player whose sound you want to emulate and have that sound in your head while you play. Even better if you can take lessons with someone like that (even just one or two is beneficial if money is an issue).
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I think the hardest part of discussions like this is that everybody seems to have a different idea of what "dark" means.

To me it's the proportion of lower harmonics versus higher harmonics. So a darker sound has a very strong presence of the core note / lower harmonics.

That's not to say that a dark sound is a "dead" sound. A dead sound is lacking in overtones and energy. That, to me, is not a dark sound, it's just a bad sound.

See when I try to play the Anniversary 190-37, I hear a brighter sound compared to a normal 37. But either my definition of dark versus bright is incorrect, or I'm not listening for the right thing.

Anyway, to the original post, I have found the dark sound comes a lot from the shape you are making with the inside of your mouth and how fast you are blowing. Experiment with making a very open space behind your teeth and filling it with air, slow warm air.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe a lot of people with "bright" sounds could just pull their tuning slide a bit and quit playing sharp... Or perhaps add a bit more depth to their mouthpiece cup if 98% of their playing is on or below the treble staff...
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: Producing a dark sound Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
How do you guys with naturally bright sounds create a dark sound when necessary?

Yes, I have left this question open ended because I'm looking for any kind of answer. A different way of thinking, an exercise, specific mouthpiece qualities, a book, etc.



Naturally bright sound? To me this seems odd. Then of course we have different voices some way down low others very bright. Why? Different oral cavities? Different vocal chords? Me - my voice octava basso in the morning - then brighter so tension plays a role? Maybe my sound has been darkened a bit since I began with the BE, I´m much more relaxed in my sound production nowadays.
Maybe some of these variables are involved in dark horn sound?
I´m playing in a brass band ever since the late 50:ties and the sound has gotten gradually darker through the decades. Even trombones used to be brighter - compare Tommy Dorsey and JJ Johnson/Kai Winding. Why? Deeper mouthpieces and larger bores. Same goes for our cornet section; once UK cornets, tight mouthpieces; now common with LB cornets and deep Wick mpc:s.
So I would recommend a deeper (probably more V - cup) mpc, a large bore horn. My old King Super 20 is much darker than my new Bach Commercial even with the same mouthpiece. Then again if Earl Bostic could make his sax sound like a superburping cow you may as well be able to make any horn bright....
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most have no idea how it should sound from behind the bell or directly in front of the bell. Recordings and even live performances are misleading.

The only way to understand this is to sit beside a player.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark vs. bright has been around for a long time. How about the OP finds us an example of the sound they are chasing?

The other thing is as Billy B. mentioned, the sound behind the bell and even recordings can sway you the wrong way. I've tried comparing dead rooms, live rooms, different recording methods from a phone to a nice setup monitored by a guy working the board to make it the best. Then there's how you are listening to that recording. All of that changes the harmonics that come through. You may think you know what you sound like and be quite off.

I just started playing a new cornet and initially though whatever I thought. That proved wrong. Recorded it in a dead room. Thought something else. Still wrong. Played it with a group with all the other players playing and all the harmonics working together and in opposition and it became exactly what I was looking for. But that was behind the bell. We'll see at the next gig how it sounds in real life. Adding people, a live room, amplification from some, feedback from all of that and the attendant cancelling effect of some harmonics and the enhancement of others will tell me something. Or not.

You have to ask, does the setup allow you to express a range of sounds, give you the intonation that you need and the agility to get around easily to play the music? Then maybe that's where you stop and let the bright vs. dark go.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get a darker sound I play deeper mouthpieces with bigger throats and more open backbores. Not exactly rocket science.

In terms of the horn I think the bell flare is the most influential specification in terms of brighter or darker sound (more open bells sound darker - think of how dark a Flügelhorn sounds), and the size of the venturi (smallest part) of the leadpipe is the second most influential spec (smaller venturi relative to bore size creates a darker sound - think of how small the venturi on a French Horn is). Next comes the thickness of the brass (lightweight sounds brighter).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Producing a dark sound Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Naturally bright sound? To me this seems odd.


Why?

When I play on a Mt Vernon 3C I sound too bright for most concert bands. When I played in the Pit Orchestra for Disney's Der Glöckner von Notre Dame (Hunchback) in Berlin my colleague Christian Meyers played that show's dark, orchestral style music on a Bob Reeves 43ES mouthpiece (ES stands for Extra Shallow) plugged into a Mt Vernon Bach Large Bore trumpet (what most consider to be a bright playing horn) and had a nice, classical sound coming out of his bell. I sat next to him playing the show first on a deep v-cupped CG Personal and then for most of the final year and a half on a Bach 1-1/2C finally moving to a copy of a Bach Mt Vernon 1, and didn't sound any darker than Christian with his bent-dime cupped mouthpiece.

Different folks naturally produce different timbres. Hence many need to adjust their equipment in order to produce the right tone for the particular kind of music they normally perform.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Most have no idea how it should sound from behind the bell or directly in front of the bell. Recordings and even live performances are misleading.

The only way to understand this is to sit beside a player.


Good point.

In the past when I've play tested different mouthpieces, part of my decision making has been based on what critical listeners (out front where an audience would be) have told me about the sound. It's been interesting that on more than one occasion when A/B testing two mouthpieces, the one that sounded darker to me while playing sounded brighter out front to the critical listener(s).

Cheers,

John
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George Coble
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why trumpet players discuss “how to get a dark sound” defies me. The shortcomings of this discussion involve reality, perception, and practicality.

The reality is one’s sound constitutes one’s brand and one needs to do everything possible, i.e.. good posture, correct breathing, less tension, using balance in every aspect of trumpet technique, as well as using minimal mouthpiece pressure to allow a clear and interesting sound. As with all aspects of quality practicing spend half your time playing and more than half of your time listening to the playback of what you just did.

The perception so many musicians have of a dark sound is, in reality, a dull sound. A dull sound is usually a forced attempt to limit “highs”. By doing this, colors are removed and there goes the most interesting aspects of a trumpeter’s sound.

The practicality of a balanced dark sound (a preponderance of low frequencies) is that it tends to not project as well in a large venue making the performer work harder than necessary. If one’s profession is limited to playing jazz in small venues with small ensembles a dark sound can work well. Otherwise, be careful what you wish for and work to make your sound the very best it can be. Do not fight what your lips and embouchure offer. Instead, make the most of it.

Good luck.

George Coble
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This ^^^^^^

I think the word "dark" should be banished. It seems like most of the time it means either "the opposite of thin, brittle, and shrill" or else "a sound completely unsuited to the trumpet"... and quite often both.
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jaysonr
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George Coble wrote:
Why trumpet players discuss “how to get a dark sound” defies me. The shortcomings of this discussion involve reality, perception, and practicality.

The reality is one’s sound constitutes one’s brand and one needs to do everything possible, i.e.. good posture, correct breathing, less tension, using balance in every aspect of trumpet technique, as well as using minimal mouthpiece pressure to allow a clear and interesting sound. As with all aspects of quality practicing spend half your time playing and more than half of your time listening to the playback of what you just did.

The perception so many musicians have of a dark sound is, in reality, a dull sound. A dull sound is usually a forced attempt to limit “highs”. By doing this, colors are removed and there goes the most interesting aspects of a trumpeter’s sound.

The practicality of a balanced dark sound (a preponderance of low frequencies) is that it tends to not project as well in a large venue making the performer work harder than necessary. If one’s profession is limited to playing jazz in small venues with small ensembles a dark sound can work well. Otherwise, be careful what you wish for and work to make your sound the very best it can be. Do not fight what your lips and embouchure offer. Instead, make the most of it.

Good luck.

George Coble


^^ This, exactly.
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Uberopa
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have done and play a cornet with a shallower mouthpiece. Trumpety sound. There you go. Name a work that specifies a dark sound. Composers have certain sounds in mine when orchestrating. When writing for trumpet they don't have soprano trombones in mind. If you are improvising use a flugelhorn. The dark vs bright sound debate is like trying to find a bicycle for a fish.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty words, but I've been around professional trumpeters for a very long time and I have never heard of one trumpet player confusing "dark" for "dull". I don't know of one trumpeter who seeks a dull sound.
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