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jhatpro
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: Mic Everyone? |
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Do you mic the horns as well as the vocalist and keys in a big venue?
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homecookin
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I have a 5 to 6 piece variety dance band, and everything is mic'd.
Sometimes, depending on the venue and the budget of the client,
I sometimes book a four piece group
with me on trumpet and vocals
and a three-piece rhythm section.
I mic the keyboards and the trumpet/ vocals
on that group.
I normally use an electric bass as opposed
to an upright bass.
I also have a duo with just me and the piano player
for Senior Living nursing home gigs, keyboard and the vocals
are mic'd through the piano players amp.
Those gigs are usually in small venues. |
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Jafuentes3
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Joined: 18 Oct 2017
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| I have some sound engineering experience and I would definitely say yes! Mic'ing everything in big venues gives you a good balance and uniformity of the band/ensemble. It works really well if you are running it through a mixer and you can EQ a little bit so everything is in it's right place! |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: |
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I wish I'd asked you guys yesterday. Last night my 10-piece swing band played a party for a local health club that hired a full service AV company. I could have had mikes for everyone but in the empty gym the horns sounded deafening so we miked only vocalist, keys, bass and guitar. After the guests arrived the horns seemed muted but by then it was too late. Guess it was all those bodies soaking up the sound. Rookie mistake!
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Similar to homecookin, I always use a mic, except maybe in the smallest of venues. I normally play as a trumpet-piano-bass trio, sometimes with an added vocalist or drummer. On most gigs, we all have separate amps for piano, bass, and trumpet. On larger gigs, I bring a PA system.
Mike
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have a related question. Last gig the e bass and guitar had amps and I felt the horns (trumpet, clarinet and baritone horn) didn't need it. A trumpet player was in the audience told us after that the bass and guitar overwhelmed the horns. I listened to the recording of the event (recorded from midway back in the room) and all I could hear was the horns and most of the guitar and none of the bass. It was a medium sized room with tables and dancers filling the floor. What gives?
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homecookin
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="jhatpro"]I wish I'd asked you guys yesterday. Last night my 10-piece swing band played a party for a local health club that hired a full service AV company. I could have had mikes for everyone but in the empty gym the horns sounded deafening so we miked only vocalist, keys, bass and guitar. After the guests arrived the horns seemed muted but by then it was too late. Guess it was all those bodies soaking up the sound. Rookie mistake
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Mic Everyone? |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | Do you mic the horns as well as the vocalist and keys in a big venue? |
In a band that's playing amplified, you ALWAYS mic the horns. There are times with the wedding band where my horn mic is turned so low that it's almost completely out of the mix going to the front - this is for rooms that are small and the horn is cutting through enough on its own. With any bigger room or venue, always mic up the horns. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it - you can't push up the sliders on instruments that aren't mic'ed up.
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:17 am Post subject: |
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The gig's been over for two days and I'm still kicking myself for not being smarter about this. Won't happen next time!
What's the most affordable way properly mic a 10-piece band? Go to Sweetwater with the rent money?
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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mm55
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes there's another option. It doesn't work in every venue, and more to the point, it doesn't work with every band. But in some cases, the drummer and electric guitarists can play at an appropriate volume level to mix appropriately with un-amplified wind instruments.
Some of my bandmates (especially drummers and guitarists), and my sound-engineering colleagues, call me crazy when I make such outrageous suggestions.
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Richard III
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | Sometimes there's another option. It doesn't work in every venue, and more to the point, it doesn't work with every band. But in some cases, the drummer and electric guitarists can play at an appropriate volume level to mix appropriately with un-amplified wind instruments.
Some of my bandmates (especially drummers and guitarists), and my sound-engineering colleagues, call me crazy when I make such outrageous suggestions. |
This has been my goal from the beginning. But I'm the guy in the audience that likes to be able to have a conversation with people at my table.
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | Sometimes there's another option. It doesn't work in every venue, and more to the point, it doesn't work with every band. But in some cases, the drummer and electric guitarists can play at an appropriate volume level to mix appropriately with un-amplified wind instruments.
Some of my bandmates (especially drummers and guitarists), and my sound-engineering colleagues, call me crazy when I make such outrageous suggestions. |
As a drummer, I can tell you that in many cases, this really isn't very realistic. You should listen to them - they know what they are talking about.
For one, drums have what I refer to as a "sound floor" - if they are going to be played with any kind of tone or resonance, they can only be so soft. This isn't going to work with any kind of high energy music.
Two - sometimes in order to get an appropriate sound out of the drums, they have to be hit with a certain amount of velocity on the end of the stick. Sometimes you need to add some rim to the snare to get the right kind of sound from the snare, and that adds even more volume. Crash cymbals need to be hit hard enough to get them to open up. I'm not saying the drummer needs to be pounding on them like a gorilla, or hitting the snare like they are mad at it, but they need to play fully.
If this is the case, you really only have a few options. You can deal with the volume and mic the other instruments, or only play tunes that don't require that kind of playing, or get electronic drums. As a drummer, I have played on electronics, but I loathe them - they take away everything that makes me distinct as a player because even the best e-kits can't capture the nuance a drummer can play with.
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Last edited by trickg on Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Richard, some of the comments we got the other night echoed that sentiment.
A trio called The Violin Girls played electrified and amplified instruments during our breaks and they were so loud conversation was impossible.
People said that, by contrast, our music was more enjoyable because they could talk to people when we were on.
Guess that's a good thing.
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | Richard, some of the comments we got the other night echoed that sentiment.
A trio called The Violin Girls played electrified and amplified instruments during our breaks and they were so loud conversation was impossible.
People said that, by contrast, our music was more enjoyable because they could talk to people when we were on.
Guess that's a good thing. |
Next time I'm in Chicago, I'm coming to see you guys. Overamped is painful to me.
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Give everyone a mic as long as you have a competent sound engineer. Otherwise, better to keep it as simple as possible. I've seen too many live music performances messed up by klutz engineers.
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Turkle
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | Sometimes there's another option. It doesn't work in every venue, and more to the point, it doesn't work with every band. But in some cases, the drummer and electric guitarists can play at an appropriate volume level to mix appropriately with un-amplified wind instruments.
Some of my bandmates (especially drummers and guitarists), and my sound-engineering colleagues, call me crazy when I make such outrageous suggestions. |
Ye Gods, I just got done playing with a quartet last night that had a drummer playing like John Bonham. I literally was begging the guy on stage to play at an appropriate volume but he steadfastly refused.
I utterly loathe musicians that play too loudly. That drummer will not be re-hired. If you can't blend at an appropriate volume, you're not making music, you're making noise.
Here's a tip for all the drummers out there - if you're playing small combo jazz, play a smaller kit! You don't need the Led Zepplin / ACDC drum kit to play a small combo in a bar! Ugh.
Sorry for the sidetrack, but as I just dealt with a "drummer" last night I'm still livid.
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mm55
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | ... sometimes in order to get an appropriate sound out of the drums, they have to be hit with a certain amount of velocity on the end of the stick. |
If the sound is drowning out other instruments, then it is simply not an appropriate sound. Getting a specific favorite sound out of a drumset is less important than the blend of the band. Too loud is not appropriate.
| Quote: | | ... or only play tunes that don't require that kind of playing ... |
I can't think of any tune that requires the drums to be too loud.
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'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Turkle wrote: | | mm55 wrote: | Sometimes there's another option. It doesn't work in every venue, and more to the point, it doesn't work with every band. But in some cases, the drummer and electric guitarists can play at an appropriate volume level to mix appropriately with un-amplified wind instruments.
Some of my bandmates (especially drummers and guitarists), and my sound-engineering colleagues, call me crazy when I make such outrageous suggestions. |
Ye Gods, I just got done playing with a quartet last night that had a drummer playing like John Bonham. I literally was begging the guy on stage to play at an appropriate volume but he steadfastly refused.
I utterly loathe musicians that play too loudly. That drummer will not be re-hired. If you can't blend at an appropriate volume, you're not making music, you're making noise.
Here's a tip for all the drummers out there - if you're playing small combo jazz, play a smaller kit! You don't need the Led Zepplin / ACDC drum kit to play a small combo in a bar! Ugh.
Sorry for the sidetrack, but as I just dealt with a "drummer" last night I'm still livid. |
Are you serious when you say he was playing like Bonham? Bonham played ear-bleedingly loud.
There are times to crank it up, but any "drummer" who can't back off and play lighter isn't a drummer.
The last several church gigs I've played I have used split rods - specifically ProMark Lightning Rods. I like like Lightning Rods better than Cool Rods or Hot Rods because they are thinner, yet the rods they are made of (just 7 of them) are a little thicker, so I still get decent stick attack with the tips while maintaining a lighter volume on the stick.
I know I said above that sometimes there's a limit to how softly a drummer can play an acoustic kit, but there are things a drummer can do:
1.) Rods - even brushes if necessary
2.) Thinner sticks - playing in the church scene I rarely play anything bigger than Vater Manhattan 7As or Vic Firth maple SD4 Combos - like a 7A in diameter but made from sugar maple, so they are lighter in weight, but have the distinctive tone of maple
3.) smaller drums - playing quietly is not the place for your 18" floor tom.
4.) smaller cymbals - not the place for your 19" Sabian AAXplosion crash.
5.) dampening on the heads. In the case of my kick drum, I have a sofa throw pillow in my drum, and I can adjust it inside from the ported front head. If I'm looking to cut back on volume a bit, I push it clear up against the batter head.
I have done all of those things on occasion, and I'm planning a drum kit build for this winter (making my own stave shells) for a club sized kit - 18" kick drum (rather than my 22x18 current) and just two toms - 12x9 and 14x14 floor tom. I want this kit because there are times where my full-sized kit is just too much. That, or I'm just going to buy a Gretsch Catalina Club Jazz kit that is basically the same setup - I haven't made up my mind yet whether to buy a kit, or make one.
Yeah - never hire that guy again. I wouldn't either.
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- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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