• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Should I quit


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Pedagogy
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
iiipopes
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 545

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

Cola wrote:
I used to improvise all the time before I got an embouchure change. It's been about 1 year since I made the change. How long did it take to any of you guys to ''feel'' the same flow you used to have before?

Months. Then it just clicked. The challenge now is balancing the day job with practice to stay in shape.
_________________
King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JacobLythgoe
New Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2018
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to think of everyday as an opportunity to improve. If you think of it as a chore than you're going to burn yourself out. Stay positive!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SMrtn
Veteran Member


Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I should quit too. Or at the least, boycott the trumpet for a month. Yeah, that sounds good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
theslawdawg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you just need to take a break for a bit and see how that feels. Even athletes take time off when they feel like they are in a rut.
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to great players, and see some live performances!

Find the recording session of the Incredibles on YouTube, a thread was made about that recently.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
VintageFTW
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 130
Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

Cola wrote:
How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context?


This is where you have gone wrong. If you truly enjoy jazz then you of all people should know that cracking a note isn't even a blip on the radar. The only time it matters is in a recording situation, and looking at your level of experience you are probably a LONG way from that. I mean, sure... clamming the last stratospherically high note in a lead piece or something along those lines sucks, but in reality, NOBODY truly cares. The only other time it might matter is if you are playing section work in a big band, but even then probably nobody will notice except for you and those near you. As far as improvising, so what? I personally find a cracked note or two in a solo to be admirable because it shows that the musician has matured enough to know that whatever you put out there is what it is. Improv is a reflection of YOUR tastes, YOUR emotions, and YOUR ideas. Nobody can take those away from you and it's up to you whether or not you choose to let an infinitesimally small action in this infinitely large world tear apart your happiness in life. Me? I'd say never quit. The trumpet is the worst affliction anyone can put upon one's self, but it is like living with the life-long love of your life. There are good times, there are bad, but in the end you still love it and couldn't even imagine being without it. I've still got a whole life ahead of me. How about you?

Here is one of the most influential quotes in my development as an improviser: Its not the note you play thats the wrong note its the note you play afterwards that makes it right or wrong. That's straight out of the mouth of Miles. There is so much to be said in that amalgamation of letters, sounds, and patterns that it changed how I view jazz and sound as a whole. There are no "wrong notes" in jazz... the only notes that exist are those that sound good, and that is completely subject to personal taste. As such, all notes sound good to someone, so the only deciding factor is whether or not it sounds good to YOU. That being said, 12 tones makes for a mighty dense jungle. It's up to you to decide which path through that proverbial forest of sound you take or make.
_________________
1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more


Last edited by VintageFTW on Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
bnsd
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That being said, 12 tones makes for a mighty dense jungle. It's up to you to decide which path through that proverbial forest of sound you take or make.

very nice analogy... I was playing lead chair last night to a guy that had the solo changes... but it included F7(#9), the 4 tone chord written out WITH accidentals, AND the entire chord written out (with an incorrect 9 by the way)... guy is just learning to play jazz, and I was trying to be supportive, but I could see (to follow your analogy)... he couldn't see the forest for the trees; he was overwhelmed by all the choices, and TOTALLY lost sight of the melody, the progression, etc. The overload caused his brain to get lost, which followed by him not hearing the changes, which led to actual wrong notes, then, his fingers started failing, and finally his chops. He had no path to follow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
solo soprano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 856
Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Should I quit?"

There's nothing wrong with not being satisfied with your playing. That's what makes for progress. But since we all have are limits, myself included, why destroy your chances of ever becoming an outstanding player, while making your life miserable, just because of where your limits happens to be right now?
_________________
Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BGinNJ
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 379

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you're college age, playing a relatively short period of time, but decided you want to be a pro so you better "get good at it". And since you're not getting good at it as quickly as you'd like, you're experiencing frustration and facing failure.

Welcome to college and young adulthood. You could be studying to be an engineer and find you're flunking math, or wanting to be a doctor and struggling with biology, etc. You're at a point in life where you're trying new things (or should be), discovering what like and what you're good at or not.

The "should I quit" question will come up again and again, with music and other areas of your life. And the answer is, when something better comes along or your life changes, you won't even ask the question.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cola
Regular Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Alma, Quebec

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGinNJ wrote:
It sounds like you're college age, playing a relatively short period of time, but decided you want to be a pro so you better "get good at it". And since you're not getting good at it as quickly as you'd like, you're experiencing frustration and facing failure.

Welcome to college and young adulthood. You could be studying to be an engineer and find you're flunking math, or wanting to be a doctor and struggling with biology, etc. You're at a point in life where you're trying new things (or should be), discovering what like and what you're good at or not.

The "should I quit" question will come up again and again, with music and other areas of your life. And the answer is, when something better comes along or your life changes, you won't even ask the question.


Spot on
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Cola
Regular Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Alma, Quebec

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

VintageFTW wrote:
Cola wrote:
How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context?


This is where you have gone wrong. If you truly enjoy jazz then you of all people should know that cracking a note isn't even a blip on the radar. The only time it matters is in a recording situation, and looking at your level of experience you are probably a LONG way from that. I mean, sure... clamming the last stratospherically high note in a lead piece or something along those lines sucks, but in reality, NOBODY truly cares. The only other time it might matter is if you are playing section work in a big band, but even then probably nobody will notice except for you and those near you. As far as improvising, so what? I personally find a cracked note or two in a solo to be admirable because it shows that the musician has matured enough to know that whatever you put out there is what it is. Improv is a reflection of YOUR tastes, YOUR emotions, and YOUR ideas. Nobody can take those away from you and it's up to you whether or not you choose to let an infinitesimally small action in this infinitely large world tear apart your happiness in life. Me? I'd say never quit. The trumpet is the worst affliction anyone can put upon one's self, but it is like living with the life-long love of your life. There are good times, there are bad, but in the end you still love it and couldn't even imagine being without it. I've still got a whole life ahead of me. How about you?

Here is one of the most influential quotes in my development as an improviser: Its not the note you play thats the wrong note its the note you play afterwards that makes it right or wrong. That's straight out of the mouth of Miles. There is so much to be said in that amalgamation of letters, sounds, and patterns that it changed how I view jazz and sound as a whole. There are no "wrong notes" in jazz... the only notes that exist are those that sound good, and that is completely subject to personal taste. As such, all notes sound good to someone, so the only deciding factor is whether or not it sounds good to YOU. That being said, 12 tones makes for a mighty dense jungle. It's up to you to decide which path through that proverbial forest of sound you take or make.


It matters now because I changed so much in my playing. Before my embouchure change, I was the guy who never missed noodling, playing with people, learning standards,etc... I didn't have a hell of a tone and agility but my playing was consistent and my ideas fresh. Now I've come off a bit better range, attack and sound-wise, but It doesnt flow that much naturally in my playing . It sucks because i'm trying to stay focused, rest often and play efficiently, but when It comes to improvisation, I become less natural and end up missing both the music and the technique. Improvising is less fun than it was 1 year ago until the day my musical brain from the past connects with the current and future technical brain. But until that day,I feel the shadow of what I could be in my ensemble performances and it sucks to feel that you can't share a moment with the band cause you're still stuck at square one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Daniel Lombard
New Member


Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice to you would be to try your best to find time to enjoy music. I feel like we tend to lose sight of what music is about when going to school for it. The industry is competitive as all hell and requires constant hard work, so I think you have to try your best to find time to enjoy it. Find like half an hour a day to just jam along to your favorite tunes and remember why you wanted to play trumpet in the first place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

Cola wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Cola wrote:
How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context? I do not feel it's a matter of practicing slower or softer or endurance, I'd just like to know why I can't transfer what I learn for my woodshedding into my improvisation.


I had a student who was very proficient in playing the lead book in a big band. He was very accurate and virtually never missed a note or a clean attack. His improvisation was an entirely different story, he cracked notes all the time. He had the same question as you seem to have: Why does everything go well in a technical sense in the practice room but it doesn't translate over to his improvisation?

What I concluded is this: When he's playing the lead book he sees the notes, he knows what's coming and he prepares to play the notes before he actually has to play them. In contrast, when he's improvising he's playing too spontaneously to know what's coming and he is unable to adequately prepare to play it. So, essentially, his mind is not working quickly enough to employ his learned and practiced fundamentals so that he can improvise cleanly.

This is largely a matter of experience, or lack thereof, in improvisation. It's a skill that develops over time.


I used to improvise all the time before I got an embouchure change. It's been about 1 year since I made the change. How long did it take to any of you guys to ''feel'' the same flow you used to have before?


I'm confused as to why an embouchure change would have any significant negative effect on the flow of ideas in jazz improvisation. It may have an effect on the execution of those ideas but I don't see why it would inhibit or otherwise compromise the formation of those ideas compared to your prior experience. So, I would think your issue is really just being able to execute with your new embouchure the ideas you already had been executing.

New embouchures require patience. Trumpet is a very difficult instrument. It can take a long time to fix problems. In fact, it can take a long time just to accurately diagnose and understand a problem, let alone fix it. In my experience for every one thing you try that works you try ten things you thought would work but didn't.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cola
Regular Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2017
Posts: 29
Location: Alma, Quebec

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Cola wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Cola wrote:
How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context? I do not feel it's a matter of practicing slower or softer or endurance, I'd just like to know why I can't transfer what I learn for my woodshedding into my improvisation.


I had a student who was very proficient in playing the lead book in a big band. He was very accurate and virtually never missed a note or a clean attack. His improvisation was an entirely different story, he cracked notes all the time. He had the same question as you seem to have: Why does everything go well in a technical sense in the practice room but it doesn't translate over to his improvisation?

What I concluded is this: When he's playing the lead book he sees the notes, he knows what's coming and he prepares to play the notes before he actually has to play them. In contrast, when he's improvising he's playing too spontaneously to know what's coming and he is unable to adequately prepare to play it. So, essentially, his mind is not working quickly enough to employ his learned and practiced fundamentals so that he can improvise cleanly.

This is largely a matter of experience, or lack thereof, in improvisation. It's a skill that develops over time.


I used to improvise all the time before I got an embouchure change. It's been about 1 year since I made the change. How long did it take to any of you guys to ''feel'' the same flow you used to have before?


I'm confused as to why an embouchure change would have any significant negative effect on the flow of ideas in jazz improvisation. It may have an effect on the execution of those ideas but I don't see why it would inhibit or otherwise compromise the formation of those ideas compared to your prior experience. So, I would think your issue is really just being able to execute with your new embouchure the ideas you already had been executing.

New embouchures require patience. Trumpet is a very difficult instrument. It can take a long time to fix problems. In fact, it can take a long time just to accurately diagnose and understand a problem, let alone fix it. In my experience for every one thing you try that works you try ten things you thought would work but didn't.


It's both execution and the fact that I need to think about the clinical aspects of trumpet to play rather than the actual music I'm making, due to the changes I've made. It makes me loose enjoyment of music cause it's not coming through by itself as when I improvise on the guitar, for example. I know it's not due to poor practice standards, but it sucks that all the hard work I make with my technique vanishes the second music comes in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1458
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

Cola wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Cola wrote:
How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context? I do not feel it's a matter of practicing slower or softer or endurance, I'd just like to know why I can't transfer what I learn for my woodshedding into my improvisation.


I had a student who was very proficient in playing the lead book in a big band. He was very accurate and virtually never missed a note or a clean attack. His improvisation was an entirely different story, he cracked notes all the time. He had the same question as you seem to have: Why does everything go well in a technical sense in the practice room but it doesn't translate over to his improvisation?

What I concluded is this: When he's playing the lead book he sees the notes, he knows what's coming and he prepares to play the notes before he actually has to play them. In contrast, when he's improvising he's playing too spontaneously to know what's coming and he is unable to adequately prepare to play it. So, essentially, his mind is not working quickly enough to employ his learned and practiced fundamentals so that he can improvise cleanly.

This is largely a matter of experience, or lack thereof, in improvisation. It's a skill that develops over time.


I used to improvise all the time before I got an embouchure change. It's been about 1 year since I made the change. How long did it take to any of you guys to ''feel'' the same flow you used to have before?


You wrote: "It feels like I'm doing absolutely nothing wrong in the practice room, but my body forgets every single mechanic when music comes in. He suggested therefore to play more often with people, but I am curious of what you guys think about that. How would you prevent me from making an a** of myself cracking notes in live context? I do not feel it's a matter of practicing slower or softer or endurance, I'd just like to know why I can't transfer what I learn for my woodshedding into my improvisation"

Cola! Hermokiwi is spot on! Your body doesnt forget - your mind cant handle the transition from "learning mode" to "execution mode", the latter instead acquiring ominous meanings. So whats happening? Do you get nervous? Do you tense up? Do you suddenly end up in a kind of confusion - "mumbo jumbo mode"?? When you practice, or play a certain tune there is a safe structure, you can tap your foot still being able to produce nice tones, you may even have time to quickly determine whether that was an Eflat or was it a D#.....there is room for some slack! But when performing - you are requested to follow somebody elses rhythm, at the same time open your mind to the sequential harmonic changes, know what notes are suitable in these, invent a melody based on ....what....ever comes to your mind - know where to accentuate, know what to focus on - rhythm, harmonics, know where to stop because 16 bars just passed by...quite a task. Me - I just cant handle improvising but Im bl -y good at sightreading. Why I cant? Feels like jumping out of an airplane umbrella as a parachute...On the other hand Im able to improvise a little playing a simple slow blues, in itself offering lots of slack....Maybe that could be a starting point for you?? Playing the blues, learning to express your feelings, telling a tale, sort of, through the bell?
Then I know people who improvise "just like that" - nice sounds just flowing, meandering, creating lovely pieces of melodies.

So I think you gotta do some thinking with regards to what state of mind you enter. You gotta transcend into a flow - flow meaning a certain state of mind where "things seem to happen all by themselves", psychologists call it a "hypnagogic" state, an altered state of consciousness, Nothing odd about that - happens whenever you are able to focus, sort of getting lost in a task. This state is very different from a thoroughly calculated structured one. Transition from left brain mode to right brain mode (if you are right-handed..) Like jumping into a pool, immersing yourself in the crystal clear lukewarm water just floating around in the warm and bright sunlight....suddenly getting access to the windmills of your mind and from a distant beach you can hear somebody playing....then realizing youre the one who plays.
Sorry to ramble on like that but my fingers suddenly began tapping
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ldebrui1
New Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2018
Posts: 5
Location: australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps think more objectively and think about the general enjoyment we get out of playing. We berate ourselves far more than we reward, and thats just creating a deficit model
_________________
trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roynj
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2065

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I quit Reply with quote

Cola wrote:

It matters now because I changed so much in my playing. Before my embouchure change, I was the guy who never missed noodling, playing with people, learning standards,etc... I didn't have a hell of a tone and agility but my playing was consistent and my ideas fresh. Now I've come off a bit better range, attack and sound-wise, but It doesnt flow that much naturally in my playing . It sucks because i'm trying to stay focused, rest often and play efficiently, but when It comes to improvisation, I become less natural and end up missing both the music and the technique. Improvising is less fun than it was 1 year ago until the day my musical brain from the past connects with the current and future technical brain. But until that day,I feel the shadow of what I could be in my ensemble performances and it sucks to feel that you can't share a moment with the band cause you're still stuck at square one.


My sister plays AT the guitar. She enjoys it tremendously. She can play various little tunes that she makes up, and she also sings songs that she has made up along with the guitar music. She absolutely likes her own playing very much. I had the opportunity to listen to her playing about a month ago. She had a great time playing and singing for me. However, here is the problem (or not) with her. As a guitar player, she is quite terrible. As a singer, she is weak and barely audible. She is self taught, has atrocious technique, cannot read a single note of music, understands really nothing about music theory, and yet really really enjoys what she is doing with the guitar. She has no interest in slogging through method books to learn better guitar technique, or to learn how to read music. She doesn't wish to take lessons as such would ruin her fun.

Your description sounds very much like a trumpet version my sister with her guitar. You enjoy noodling around on the trumpet. You work on things that make you happy, and you dont have a very good tone or really any range to speak of, but you were clearly having some fun with playing the trumpet. There's nothing wrong with this approach, provided that you are happy with what you're doing. So quit or don't quit, that's a personal choice. But above all, try to do things with the instrument that make you happy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trptcam
New Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2018
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep playing bud.
The struggle is what makes you improve. You've definitely had some bad luck with teachers, but the best thing you can do is just keep grinding at it.

Take your time when you work on stuff and be observant when you make mistakes. Thats how the growth will happen.

Keep at it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 10202
Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
It sounds to me like you could use a break from playing. Enjoy music (not performance). When you come back, do it with another teacher. And don't be impatient.


I heartily endorse this advice!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Pedagogy All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group