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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:21 am Post subject: Why do valves stick with too thin valve oil? |
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Hi
I am trying to understand what causes valves to stick, to try to better understand what is going on with my Bach.
When I was mistakenly sent Yamaha Synthetic Super Light Valve oil instead of my usual Light, the usually very good, oiled daily, two year old valves of my Xeno II trumpet stuck horribly, as did the valves of my older, but just as carefully oiled, Xeno cornet. A return to my usual slightly thicker oil solved the sticking issue. I know what caused the sticking, in that it was too thin valve oil, but not the physics of what actually was going on in the valves which resulted in the sticking occurring.
On a related note, why do worn valves stick with too thin oil?
Presumably it is all to do with compression, vacuums etc, but I would really appreciate it if somebody wouldn't mind giving an explanation in layman's terms of what is going on.
Back to the Bach, I'm going to try swapping the valve stems when the sticking occurs at home, but for now I have wiped down the valves and valve casings, and re-oiled, this time with Hetman 2. I've previously found that thicker oils have made it worse, but this was before the second lapping, and maybe I tried too thick oils. I believe that I have must have tried Hetman 2 previously, as I must have some reason for having a bottle of Hetman 2 and 3, as well as 1. Basically I want to ascertain whether a thicker oil will make this valve better or worse, as this will hopefully give me an indication of the cause of the sticking.
Thanks in advance
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Do your Bach pistons all end up with some brown staining on them? All of mine did and I'd have to use some Flitz or Wenol to remove it, then the sticking would end. I have a college student with the same issue (Bach 37) and I'll have to lend her a horn this week so I can clean the crap off of hers as well. I've never had that problem with my Schilke horns or my 9445CHS Yam. Must be the monel Bach has chosen to use. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Robb Stewart wrote an interesting article about problems with piston valve action. Highlights:
Robb Stewart wrote: | Valve oil of an appropriate consistency must be used to assure good action and longevity. There are now available valve oils that range from extremely thin, for the tightest valves, to quite thick for those that were either fit loosely or have worn to that extent.
No matter how tight or loose, the valves will only work well, without "hanging up" or otherwise sticking, if the piston is "floating" or "riding" on a film of oil within the casing. This is the same phenomenon that prevents the engine in your car from seizing when you drive it. In absence of any lubricant, the metal surfaces will tend to stick to each other...
If the piston or casing are damaged, even very slightly, they will not function well if at all. It is important to assess exactly where the damage is and address only that. Too often the casing is reamed to fit a bent piston or the piston is sanded down to fit a damaged casing. If a bit more thought was applied to the situation, one would realize that it would be better to address the damage than the symptom. |
I think the entire article is worth a read for more details. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3633 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | Robb Stewart wrote an interesting article about problems with piston valve action. Highlights:
Robb Stewart wrote: | Valve oil of an appropriate consistency must be used to assure good action and longevity. There are now available valve oils that range from extremely thin, for the tightest valves, to quite thick for those that were either fit loosely or have worn to that extent.
No matter how tight or loose, the valves will only work well, without "hanging up" or otherwise sticking, if the piston is "floating" or "riding" on a film of oil within the casing. This is the same phenomenon that prevents the engine in your car from seizing when you drive it. In absence of any lubricant, the metal surfaces will tend to stick to each other...
If the piston or casing are damaged, even very slightly, they will not function well if at all. It is important to assess exactly where the damage is and address only that. Too often the casing is reamed to fit a bent piston or the piston is sanded down to fit a damaged casing. If a bit more thought was applied to the situation, one would realize that it would be better to address the damage than the symptom. |
I think the entire article is worth a read for more details. |
Yes, Robb is right on the money - you have to have an emulsion or barrier created between piston and casing by the oil. Without that, it's metal on metal and it sticks. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Craig Swartz wrote: | Do your Bach pistons all end up with some brown staining on them? All of mine did and I'd have to use some Flitz or Wenol to remove it, then the sticking would end. I have a college student with the same issue (Bach 37) and I'll have to lend her a horn this week so I can clean the crap off of hers as well. I've never had that problem with my Schilke horns or my 9445CHS Yam. Must be the monel Bach has chosen to use. |
Hi Craig
No, I've never had this issue. My valves look very clean.
Thanks very much anyhow.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | Robb Stewart wrote an interesting article about problems with piston valve action. Highlights:
Robb Stewart wrote: | Valve oil of an appropriate consistency must be used to assure good action and longevity. There are now available valve oils that range from extremely thin, for the tightest valves, to quite thick for those that were either fit loosely or have worn to that extent.
No matter how tight or loose, the valves will only work well, without "hanging up" or otherwise sticking, if the piston is "floating" or "riding" on a film of oil within the casing. This is the same phenomenon that prevents the engine in your car from seizing when you drive it. In absence of any lubricant, the metal surfaces will tend to stick to each other...
If the piston or casing are damaged, even very slightly, they will not function well if at all. It is important to assess exactly where the damage is and address only that. Too often the casing is reamed to fit a bent piston or the piston is sanded down to fit a damaged casing. If a bit more thought was applied to the situation, one would realize that it would be better to address the damage than the symptom. |
I think the entire article is worth a read for more details. |
Hi dstdenis
Thanks very much. I have read what you have quoted, which I found very helpful, and will read the rest of the article.
Thanks again
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:26 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: |
Yes, Robb is right on the money - you have to have an emulsion or barrier created between piston and casing by the oil. Without that, it's metal on metal and it sticks. |
Hi Lionel
Thanks very much.
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | Robb Stewart wrote an interesting article about problems with piston valve action. Highlights:
Robb Stewart wrote: | Valve oil of an appropriate consistency must be used to assure good action and longevity. There are now available valve oils that range from extremely thin, for the tightest valves, to quite thick for those that were either fit loosely or have worn to that extent.
No matter how tight or loose, the valves will only work well, without "hanging up" or otherwise sticking, if the piston is "floating" or "riding" on a film of oil within the casing. This is the same phenomenon that prevents the engine in your car from seizing when you drive it. In absence of any lubricant, the metal surfaces will tend to stick to each other...
If the piston or casing are damaged, even very slightly, they will not function well if at all. It is important to assess exactly where the damage is and address only that. Too often the casing is reamed to fit a bent piston or the piston is sanded down to fit a damaged casing. If a bit more thought was applied to the situation, one would realize that it would be better to address the damage than the symptom. |
I think the entire article is worth a read for more details. |
Hi dstdenis
I've now read the whole article.
Very interesting, thanks very much.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 474 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
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I have had sticking valves on my Xeno and I have solved it by mixing in just a touch of Hetmans 7 (the tuning slide oil which is very heavy). I oil them up with Hetmans 1 or 2 and then touch the tip of the 7 bottle to get a small dot, and twirl the valve to mix around.
I have only had this problem on monel valves, there may be something going at the nanoscale level with monel. It surprisingly complex how surface films work. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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tptguy Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3380 Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Try Pollard's valve stripper. Very easy way to deep clean and prep valves before applying any lube. Has worked well for me every time I've had a valve hang up. Especially helpful on newer horns where valves are still very tight. Also great when changing valve oils because lubes often don't play well with others.
http://www.callettrumpets.com/lube_&_clean.htm |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lou,
Your post gave me a thought about what could be happening that you should consider/check out. Your valves are vented. The vent opening is the hole in the bottom of the valve. The reason your valves are vented is so that the air being displaced by the movement of the valve has a place to go and you're not working against air compression on the down stroke or air suction on the up stroke. If the vent hole of a valve is blocked, clogged or otherwise restricted you're likely to have a slow valve return problem with the up stroke. It can seem like "sticking" but the problem is really the fact that the vent system isn't working. If that's what's happening with your valve no amount or type of valve oil will fix it.
Remove the valves and blow into the bottom of each one and see if there's a noticeable difference. If the vent is open you'll be able to blow freely into the vent hole. If the vent is blocked it will be like trying to blow air into a bottle, all you'll get is back pressure.
Maybe this is the issue. It's worth checking out. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:34 am Post subject: |
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scottfsmith wrote: | I have had sticking valves on my Xeno and I have solved it by mixing in just a touch of Hetmans 7 (the tuning slide oil which is very heavy). I oil them up with Hetmans 1 or 2 and then touch the tip of the 7 bottle to get a small dot, and twirl the valve to mix around.
I have only had this problem on monel valves, there may be something going at the nanoscale level with monel. It surprisingly complex how surface films work. |
Hi scottfsmith
Thanks very much. Worth considering.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:37 am Post subject: |
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tptguy wrote: | Try Pollard's valve stripper. Very easy way to deep clean and prep valves before applying any lube. Has worked well for me every time I've had a valve hang up. Especially helpful on newer horns where valves are still very tight. Also great when changing valve oils because lubes often don't play well with others.
http://www.callettrumpets.com/lube_&_clean.htm |
Hi tptguy
I've never heard of this. Worth checking out.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:38 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Hi Lou,
Your post gave me a thought about what could be happening that you should consider/check out. Your valves are vented. The vent opening is the hole in the bottom of the valve. The reason your valves are vented is so that the air being displaced by the movement of the valve has a place to go and you're not working against air compression on the down stroke or air suction on the up stroke. If the vent hole of a valve is blocked, clogged or otherwise restricted you're likely to have a slow valve return problem with the up stroke. It can seem like "sticking" but the problem is really the fact that the vent system isn't working. If that's what's happening with your valve no amount or type of valve oil will fix it.
Remove the valves and blow into the bottom of each one and see if there's a noticeable difference. If the vent is open you'll be able to blow freely into the vent hole. If the vent is blocked it will be like trying to blow air into a bottle, all you'll get is back pressure.
Maybe this is the issue. It's worth checking out. |
Hi HERMOKIWI
I'll check this out. Many thanks.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:56 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | It can seem like "sticking" but the problem is really the fact that the vent system isn't working. If that's what's happening with your valve no amount or type of valve oil will fix it. |
15 years ago I bought myself a brand new trumpet fitted with the famous unbeatable Bauernfeind valve machine, after a few years of use the 2nd valve becomed sticky.
The valvecasting wasn't damaged, venting was o.k., cleaning didn't help; I send the trumpet back to the maker and she returned with the same problem.
Than I started experimenting with differend valve oils and the day I feeded the machine with Binak 495 the problem was solved!
Strangely enough, the same Binak 495 makes the valves of my other trumpets (Getzen, Olds, Conn, Bach) slow. I guess valves are quiet picky when it comes to valve oil
The Getzen likes Al Cass 'fast' as well as Brasswind Valve Oil
The Olds and Bach likes Brasswind Valve Oil
The Conn likes Spacefiller Blue _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | It can seem like "sticking" but the problem is really the fact that the vent system isn't working. If that's what's happening with your valve no amount or type of valve oil will fix it. |
15 years ago I bought myself a brand new trumpet fitted with the famous unbeatable Bauernfeind valve machine, after a few years of use the 2nd valve becomed sticky.
The valvecasting wasn't damaged, venting was o.k., cleaning didn't help; I send the trumpet back to the maker and she returned with the same problem.
Than I started experimenting with differend valve oils and the day I feeded the machine with Binak 495 the problem was solved!
Strangely enough, the same Binak 495 makes the valves of my other trumpets (Getzen, Olds, Conn, Bach) slow. I guess valves are quiet picky when it comes to valve oil
The Getzen likes Al Cass 'fast' as well as Brasswind Valve Oil
The Olds and Bach likes Brasswind Valve Oil
The Conn likes Spacefiller Blue |
Hi Manuel
Thanks very much.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7011 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Lou,
The first thing I thought of was that you changed your oil and it was synthetic. Some synthetics will turn gelatinous when mixed with other oils. To solve this, you may have to strip the pistons of the residue. I used white vinegar for this when it happened to me and that removed whatever microscopic film was left after my standard wash.
When I think I need to really clean my valve pistons, I get my favorite dish soap and massage it into the surface of the piston, then rinse well with hot water. I then put a good bit of the soap on a microfiber towel and swab the valve casings, too. Then, I put vinegar in a liter glass jar (I'm lying, I use a quart jar!) and submerge the pistons for 30 minutes. Then I wash again with dish soap, rinse and assemble with the new oil. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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jazzvuu Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Feb 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I used piston Hetman (I think #2) for a long time not really knowing about the thin(light) and classic weight oils. My an older yamaha flugelhorn 731 and cornet 731 would always hang on me. But the moment I tried the classic on it, it has not stuck ones even after a long period of not being play on or oil. It will get sluggish instead after not being played/oiled for a long time. I also switch to the hetman light piston for my other horns and it has been great. I can feel the different in stroke. Those horns are a schilke S32 and yamaha artist xenos. I heard ultra pure is great too but hetman works for me and no need to fix something not broken. |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:00 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | Lou,
The first thing I thought of was that you changed your oil and it was synthetic. Some synthetics will turn gelatinous when mixed with other oils. To solve this, you may have to strip the pistons of the residue. I used white vinegar for this when it happened to me and that removed whatever microscopic film was left after my standard wash.
When I think I need to really clean my valve pistons, I get my favorite dish soap and massage it into the surface of the piston, then rinse well with hot water. I then put a good bit of the soap on a microfiber towel and swab the valve casings, too. Then, I put vinegar in a liter glass jar (I'm lying, I use a quart jar!) and submerge the pistons for 30 minutes. Then I wash again with dish soap, rinse and assemble with the new oil. |
Hi Brian
Thanks very much, but I have been using synthetics for years. Admittedly I did switch back to synthetics recently after using Holton for a while, but the sticking was there before. I will however try what you suggest, in case there is some build up of something on the valve.
Thanks very much again.
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:02 am Post subject: |
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jazzvuu wrote: | I used piston Hetman (I think #2) for a long time not really knowing about the thin(light) and classic weight oils. My an older yamaha flugelhorn 731 and cornet 731 would always hang on me. But the moment I tried the classic on it, it has not stuck ones even after a long period of not being play on or oil. It will get sluggish instead after not being played/oiled for a long time. I also switch to the hetman light piston for my other horns and it has been great. I can feel the different in stroke. Those horns are a schilke S32 and yamaha artist xenos. I heard ultra pure is great too but hetman works for me and no need to fix something not broken. |
Hi jazzvuu
Thanks very much. I have Hetman 1, 2 and 3, and have tried them all on this trumpet.
Thanks again.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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