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Why do valves stick with too thin valve oil?


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Lou,
Forget vinegar! It's not going to do anything helpful.

Hi Lionel

Thanks very much. This will save me from going to buy some white vinegar today.


Sounds like the valves are loose; don't know what else to think.

Thanks very much.

I would be swabbing them clean - pistons and casings - and trying various oils. Something may work, and oil is much cheaper than a valve refit.

Thank you very much. I'll give it a try.

There's also the Yamaha alloy problem which may be contributing to the sticking.

Luckily not with this trumpet, as it is my Bach trumpet with the sticking problems and not my Yamaha.

Good Luck,
-Lionel

Thank you very much. Your previous assistance and current post are all really much appreciated.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi Bflatman


it sounds like you need a tech to look at it

Yes, it does doesn't it, and without meaning to be sarcastic, if I had access to a good tech, I wouldn't be trying to solve it myself.

Best wishes

Lou



There are two parts to the repair process: (1) Diagnosis, and (2) having the repair performed. You aren't having success even diagnosing the problem.

Your Strad is worth a lot of money. It makes sense to protect your investment by having the horn looked at by a brass instrument tech.

I did a quick search of brass instrument repair shops in the UK. Here's a link to Dawkes Music:

https://www.dawkes.co.uk/brass-repairs.php

They'll even collect your instrument and return it to you for a nominal fee:

"We can collect your Instrument too...

If you can't make it to the shop, we can arrange for your Instrument to be collected from you at a convenient time. The cost for a collection is £15 and £9 for delivery back.

All we ask is that the Instrument is packaged in an outer cardboard box and is well padded. An accompanying letter with your contact details makes it easier at our end. Please note that we do not accept Baritone Saxophones through the post."

You could also send your horn to a tech here in the US. There are many references on TH to valve specialists in the US.

Access to a tech is as close as your local post office and communication is as close as your email address. Select someone you trust, explain the problem to them, pack the instrument well and ship it to them. If you can't afford the repair give us the details and I'm sure many of us who enjoy your posts here on TH would be willing to help out (me included).
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try going to a heavier oil, perhaps Ultra Pure regular or Hetman's for older valves formulas. The thin oil doesn't work because the space between the valve and the trumpet casing is too large, and the thin oil doesn't fill the space adequately enough to keep it lubricated and yet not evaporate.

In honesty, the more I read, the more it sounds like they have been overly lapped and honestly need a rebuild.

AL
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MusicByThePound
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Joined: 11 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sort of related to this topic.....

Ran across a New York era Strad that had this letter from 1946 in the case describing new horn valve break in and care. Link(s) below (hopefully one will work).

Not sure if this letter was standard issue from the factory with all new horns or added by the dealer.

Thought using cold cream was an interesting twist.

Had a friend that recommended using Lithium grease then adding a few drops of valve oil. Smoothed out a sticky valve and sealed leaky valves on old horns.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]
[url]https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi Bflatman


it sounds like you need a tech to look at it

Yes, it does doesn't it, and without meaning to be sarcastic, if I had access to a good tech, I wouldn't be trying to solve it myself.

Best wishes

Lou



There are two parts to the repair process: (1) Diagnosis, and (2) having the repair performed. You aren't having success even diagnosing the problem.

Hi HERMOKIWI

I couldn't agree more.


Your Strad is worth a lot of money. It makes sense to protect your investment by having the horn looked at by a brass instrument tech.

I did a quick search of brass instrument repair shops in the UK. Here's a link to Dawkes Music:

https://www.dawkes.co.uk/brass-repairs.php

They'll even collect your instrument and return it to you for a nominal fee:

"We can collect your Instrument too...

If you can't make it to the shop, we can arrange for your Instrument to be collected from you at a convenient time. The cost for a collection is £15 and £9 for delivery back.

All we ask is that the Instrument is packaged in an outer cardboard box and is well padded. An accompanying letter with your contact details makes it easier at our end. Please note that we do not accept Baritone Saxophones through the post."

Thanks very much for the above. I know Dawkes. They serviced my husband's saxophone a few months back. I have considered using them, but believe possibly wrongly, that there are not many companies in the UK who offer a valve rebuild service if required. The reason why we chose them for my husband's Saxophone, is that they restore and sell a lot of vintage saxophones, which seems to be their speciality. I could definitely ask them.

A couple of other possibilities come to mind. If I suggest them here, would any UK readers please PM me with any postive/negative experiences with these companies and Dawkes. The first is Phil Parker. I had the same issue with a new Smith Watkins cornet, and tried for two years to solve it. When I eventually returned it to Phil Parkers, their tech found a score in the first valve casing, which was causing the sticking on the upstroke. He was therefore able to diagnose the problem, but he didn't repair it, as it was sent back to Smith Watkins.

Another possibility is John Packer in Taunton. Their woodwind tech did a miraculous job with my flute. It is a Yamaha student model from 1986.
Primarily playing brass and playing flute only once or twice a year between 1996 and 2012, so I didn't give it up completely, when I started playing it more regularly (More regularly as in once a fortnight in the Jazz band, and if the rehearsal is called off, the flute doesn't come out. This is deliberate on my part, so that I can focus on my brass playing), I had it serviced. It didn't seem any different, and the intonation wasn't great. I tried another tech, and ditto. I asked John Packer to give it a quick check over whilst sending it to them to have a solid silver head joint fitted, which I never did in the end, and they reported that they had had to work really hard at getting my flute playing well. Apparently every single pad was seated incorrectly. I couldn't believe the difference when it came back. It played really well, and doesn't seem like the same instrument.


You could also send your horn to a tech here in the US. There are many references on TH to valve specialists in the US.

Very true, but the problem is that UK customs will charge me custom charges on the valve of my trumpet + the work + shipping, which ends up really expensive, as it works out I believe around 22% of the total value.. I don't feel that I should pay custom charges on a trumpet which I have already paid VAT on, but if no value is given on the customs documentation, then there is no value for insurance purposes.

Access to a tech is as close as your local post office and communication is as close as your email address. Select someone you trust, explain the problem to them, pack the instrument well and ship it to them.

Very true. I've just got to find someone to ship it to.

If you can't afford the repair give us the details and I'm sure many of us who enjoy your posts here on TH would be willing to help out (me included).

That is extremely kind of you, and I thank you very much, but I would never take money from others. I'm not particularly well off, but I could find the money for repairs, if I was confident of a satisfactory outcome.

Thanks very much again.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
Try going to a heavier oil, perhaps Ultra Pure regular or Hetman's for older valves formulas. The thin oil doesn't work because the space between the valve and the trumpet casing is too large, and the thin oil doesn't fill the space adequately enough to keep it lubricated and yet not evaporate.

Hi Al

I keep trying thicker oils, and they seem to make the issue worse.


In honesty, the more I read, the more it sounds like they have been overly lapped and honestly need a rebuild.

It does, but why then do thicker oils make it worse?

I just can't get my head around what it going on.

Even though the valves have admittedly been lapped twice recently, or the first one has anyhow, it was sticking before either of the recent lappings, so if this is now the cause, there was a previous cause before the lappings, and I have no idea what this is/was.


AL

Thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MusicByThePound wrote:
Sort of related to this topic.....

Ran across a New York era Strad that had this letter from 1946 in the case describing new horn valve break in and care. Link(s) below (hopefully one will work).

Not sure if this letter was standard issue from the factory with all new horns or added by the dealer.

Thought using cold cream was an interesting twist.

Had a friend that recommended using Lithium grease then adding a few drops of valve oil. Smoothed out a sticky valve and sealed leaky valves on old horns.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]
[url]https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtzfEdwoSCemgTphkGKkZ5L9ALdR[/url]


Hi MusicByThePound

Thanks very much, I'll check this out.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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stumac
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,

I know how frustrating this problem is, I have a prewar Selmer cornet that the 1st valve is slow to come up after playing for a couple of minutes, I have had it to the best tech in Melbourne and he could not find a solution, the valve is fine just operating cold, only after playing and it warms up, makes me think it is a temperature problem, the horn has had several cleanings and the casing given a light hone.

Try pressing the valve halfway down and moving it sideways, this will show wear, lift the valve slightly until the guide disengages from the slot and rotate it, it should rotate smoothly, if it gets stiff or binds then there can be a distortion of the valve or casing.

Regards, Stuart.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried T2 oil? I had a few finicky horns that worked way better with that oil.
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sell or trade it. Replace it.

Unless you have a sentimental attachment to the horn ... let it go. Life is too short to tolerate so much aggravation.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
Hi Lou,

I know how frustrating this problem is, I have a prewar Selmer cornet that the 1st valve is slow to come up after playing for a couple of minutes, I have had it to the best tech in Melbourne and he could not find a solution, the valve is fine just operating cold, only after playing and it warms up, makes me think it is a temperature problem, the horn has had several cleanings and the casing given a light hone.

Hi Stuart

I am extremely sorry to hear this.


Try pressing the valve halfway down and moving it sideways, this will show wear, lift the valve slightly until the guide disengages from the slot and rotate it, it should rotate smoothly, if it gets stiff or binds then there can be a distortion of the valve or casing.

I'll give this a try, thanks.

Regards, Stuart.

Thanks again.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Have you tried T2 oil? I had a few finicky horns that worked way better with that oil.


Hi cheiden

No, but I'll look into this, thanks very much

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Rowe wrote:
Sell or trade it. Replace it.

Unless you have a sentimental attachment to the horn ... let it go. Life is too short to tolerate so much aggravation.


Hi Robert

I do see your point, but how can you sell or trade a trumpet with a valve like this. Firstly it would play on my conscience, and secondly I would be worried about possible come back.

What would you do if you bought a trumpet like this on Ebay? Probably ask for your money back saying that the seller did not disclose this problem. If I list it as having a sticking valve, it probably either won't sell or I'll get so little for it, that I will be unable to replace it.

Thanks very much anyhow.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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jimspeedjae
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,

Have you ever tried any replacement valves to see if the problem still exists? Might help narrow down the cause to valve or casing issues. Likewise we could try your valves in different valve blocks - I have a couple of strads lying around at the moment.

Done any accurate measuring of the bore casings and pistons to check variance? If different valve sets still have the same problem then some measurements might help understand what's going on. I have some new/old/MAW valves that we could try if you wish.

If you want to do either but don't have the bits needed and are near / can get up to Cambridgeshire one day drop me a pm.

I might also be able to do a measured pressure test on the valve block for you...I have a new bit of kit I'm currently playing around with.

James
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimspeedjae wrote:
Hi Lou,

Have you ever tried any replacement valves to see if the problem still exists? Might help narrow down the cause to valve or casing issues. Likewise we could try your valves in different valve blocks - I have a couple of strads lying around at the moment.

Done any accurate measuring of the bore casings and pistons to check variance? If different valve sets still have the same problem then some measurements might help understand what's going on. I have some new/old/MAW valves that we could try if you wish.

If you want to do either but don't have the bits needed and are near / can get up to Cambridgeshire one day drop me a pm.

I might also be able to do a measured pressure test on the valve block for you...I have a new bit of kit I'm currently playing around with.

James


Hi Lou,

These are good suggestions. If you can just buy a new valve or a used valve that works in your horn that seems like the simplest, cheapest and most reliable solution. Test your horn out with a different 1st valve and let us know how it goes.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimspeedjae wrote:
Hi Lou,

Hi James

Have you ever tried any replacement valves to see if the problem still exists?

No, I haven't.

Might help narrow down the cause to valve or casing issues. Likewise we could try your valves in different valve blocks - I have a couple of strads lying around at the moment.

Sounds a great idea. Apart from my Bach 183 flugel horn, which probably has a different valve block, since it has inline valves, my only Bach valve horn with the same valve block as my Bach trumpet, is my Bach 184ML cornet. Although the 1st valve is ok of my Bach 184ML, it was problematic for a while, owing to the 1st piston rolling off the work top on to a tiled kitchen floor, whilst cleaning it, resulting in a flat spot at the bottom of the 1st piston, making it slightly off round. This happened just prior to my previous marriage failing, I was not in a position either personally or financially to do anything about it, it was my primary horn at the time, and I just put up with it, switching to Holton for a few months, which largely solved the issue, then eventually back to my usual Yamaha Synthetic Light. It eventually bedded in, but I believe that there is still a noticeable flat spot on the bottom of the valve. I haven't played that cornet for a couple of years.

Done any accurate measuring of the bore casings and pistons to check variance?

No, I haven't any appropriate tools for measuring.

If different valve sets still have the same problem then some measurements might help understand what's going on. I have some new/old/MAW valves that we could try if you wish.

Thank you very much either.

If you want to do either but don't have the bits needed and are near / can get up to Cambridgeshire one day drop me a pm.

Thank you very much that it extremely extremely kind of you, and I will definitely drop you a PM if I can pop up to Cambridgeshire one day.

I might also be able to do a measured pressure test on the valve block for you...I have a new bit of kit I'm currently playing around with.

That would be great.

James

Thanks very very much again. Your kindness and offer of help and assistance, is really really appreciated.

Take car

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
jimspeedjae wrote:
Hi Lou,

Have you ever tried any replacement valves to see if the problem still exists? Might help narrow down the cause to valve or casing issues. Likewise we could try your valves in different valve blocks - I have a couple of strads lying around at the moment.

Done any accurate measuring of the bore casings and pistons to check variance? If different valve sets still have the same problem then some measurements might help understand what's going on. I have some new/old/MAW valves that we could try if you wish.

If you want to do either but don't have the bits needed and are near / can get up to Cambridgeshire one day drop me a pm.

I might also be able to do a measured pressure test on the valve block for you...I have a new bit of kit I'm currently playing around with.

James


Hi Lou,

These are good suggestions. If you can just buy a new valve or a used valve that works in your horn that seems like the simplest, cheapest and most reliable solution. Test your horn out with a different 1st valve and let us know how it goes.


Hi HERMOKIWI

Thanks very much. I will let you know how it goes, if I do have a chance to try another 1st valve.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swapping in a new valve really won’t tell you much. Bach valves are hand fit and therefore the size will vary slightly.

Earlier in your post you mentioned a couple of tech possibilities. Why don’t you pick up the phone and discuss whether they have a brass specialist and if they believe they can diagnose and fix the issue? You can also ask for reviews from previous customers.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me try saying this a different way
Your horn has tension pressing on the 1st valve tubes and distorting the casing. That is why someone lapped them, and that is why the first re-lapping did not work, and that is why the second re-lapping also did not work.

Heat up the tubes and braces one by one and pop the tension. Some re-soldi g might be required.

Even if you were to rebuild the valve the tesnsion problem would resurface.

If it’s the first valve, the most common pace for tension is the bottom 1st valve slide tube getting pressure from the little brace between the bell tail and the bottom tube.

Next most common would be where the bell tail is attached to the casing.

How many seconds of vacuum are you getting? That is a lot of information for a 2 minute test. Definitely worth the time. If you are getting 10 seconds or more, just pop the tension and don’t worry about the valve fit
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My son dropped his horn. And though there were no visible signs of damage it resulted in a valve that would go down easily but wouldn't return reliably. When it would hang I could apply just a bit of pressure to the slide and the valve would pop right up. I this case the tech at the local shop used a tool to expand the cylinder where it was binding then polished it slightly. No problems since then.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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