Tp section placement in big bands?

[formerathas]

Hello. I guess this topic does not relate to trumpet skills. I have been thinking about it again and again, but I felt that I would not reach to the answer...So please tell me if you know about this confusing problem.

I play the trumpet in the college big band, and I was told that the trumpet section should be placed as "2 1 3 4" (from the audience). I guess that Count Basie Orchestra was in the same way...
However, a few years ago I found that in Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band, they line up like "3 1 2 4." Also I heard from one UK trumpet studio player, that UK players like the same placement.
What I would like to know most is "actually how about Count Basie, Vanguard Jazz Orchestra (Thad Jones - Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra)? And what do you think which placement is better or recommended?"

Thank you.
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[Mike Sailors]

2134

The third trumpet player will often times get thrown a lead part. When that happens, he’s already sitting in the middle of the section so the sound/balance out front doesn’t change wildly.
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[zaferis]

2134 is what I mostly see - that is if the rhythm section is on the left of that.

2 sitting by the rhythm section as that, for many, is the Jazz soloist chair and nice to have them close to the rhythm section. But arrangements are not consistent, some solos in 2, 3, or 4.. then the soloist quite often walks up front to a mic. I like 4123, because most of the band I play with 1 & 2 swap parts more frequently and solos are in 4 or a featured part (1, 2, 3, solo)

I don't think it matters all that much out front, more to the band of where to listen - tradition has the leads of each section lined up so they can connect better.
I just heard a story of why we split the Tenors in the sax section - also from the Basie Band - his tenor player at the time didn't get along, so he split them up.
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[gchun01]

2134 is pretty standard, but there have been other variations:

Buddy Rich's section was often 3124 since the third book often had the solos. You'd see Greg Gisbert, Chuck Findley, etc standing next to Buddy and the rhythm section.

Kenton's 5-part trumpet section threw a monkey wrench into standardization, with a non-conventional rhythm section setup and "horseshoe" wind setup.

As a lead player, I prefer to have the 2nd on one side of me and the 3rd on the other. I don't care when the 4th is standing next to me. But sometimes you don't have a choice, depending on the situation.

A professional sitdown gig is often different from a college/concert gig where moving positions is often common.

Garry

[roccotrumpetsiffredi]

So does Wynton Marsalis, who ive heard in some interview, plays 4th trumpet go against traditional convention? Does it really matter other than what people are used to, from a sound perspective? I'm pretty sure a strong lead player is equally well heard even if to the left or right a few feet:), no?

Apologies for the terrible sentence flow.

[Seymor B Fudd]

[gchun01]

[trickg]

Every big band I've ever been a part of was 2134 for the trumpets, but in one instance, rather than putting the barry sax and bass trombone on the far end lined up with the 4th trumpet player, they moved them closer to the rhythm section so they could lock in better. Whether or not it actually helped would be a matter for debate, but it seemed to.
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[RandyTX]

[loweredsixth]

Interesting. The big band I've been in for a about six years (except this year) sits 4213(5).
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[gchun01]

The type of big band and arranging style will dictate the setup. I think in "a jazz orchestra" like Maria Schneider, the setup is much more critical due to the nuances of the arrangement, especially when the band is NOT playing pedal to the metal volumes. Maria's arrangements had a lot of emphasis on texture.

To add even another setup, Ollie Mitchell's LA "Stereo Band" set up with the rhythm section in the middle, with the horn players on both sides. The music was written Trpt I-left, Trpt II-left; Trpt I-right; Trpt II-right. When Ollie moved to Honolulu, his band rehearsed in a modified Kenton Horseshoe, but often performed with the horns in a single line. It taught us to be flexible.

Whatever works.

[oljackboy]

As a jazz player, it is a big advantage to be as close to the rhythm section as is feasible. The point about lining up the lead trumpet, trombone and alto players is also very valid. In my experience, the 2134 setup is the most common.

[Ed Hernandez]

2-1-3-4 most common, then again have done 3-1-2-4 which also works in keeping trumpets 2&3 right next to lead for a close tight sound. Having played 2 & 3 I like being close to the lead where I can even feel and see when he takes a breath. There's something about the proximity.
Now having said that, I've seen a pretty good Central Tx Big Band who consistently use 3-2-1-4-5 with much success and from my seat in the audience sounds pretty good.
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[formerathas]

Thank you for all your comments. I was a little surprised that 2134 seems to be the most popular sequence. But actually I have come to think that 2134 is better than 3124 because the 4th player can hear the closer register from the 3rd player. Perhaps the 3rd player may have trouble listening to the 2nd player, though 3rd player often tends to be in difficult position..
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[gchun01]

When I'm playing lead, I prefer being surrounded by the 2nd and 3rd parts. What I try to avoid is being right next to the 4th(or 5th) part. On a lot of arrangements, the distance in voicings it too far for my tastes.

[trane1959]

You want whomever is going to take the bulk of the solos to be closest to the rythmn section so that when it's solo time they can must comfortably hear each other and interact. Most big bands that would be the second player. In the case of LJCO, Wynton plays 4th, but he's Wynton, and he's improvising. Typically though, 2134 is best as the lead player should be surrounded by the notes that will be most close to them in range.
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