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Johnny155 New Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2016 Posts: 10 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:00 am Post subject: Best Mouthpiece Copy maker? |
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Hi all - I have a special trumpet mouthpiece made by putting together various different components...I was interested in having it copied into a one piece...has anyone done something similar, and what’s the result been? How accurate of a Copy was it? How long did it take? Who did you use? Stork, Pickett, parke? |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Several manufacturers can laser CNC measure and manufacture anything you want. But it is very expensive.
Some years ago I broached the subject of a custom tuba mouthpiece with Jim New when he was still with Kanstul. What I described was going to cost at least $300.00. Then he told me what I was wanting was essentially their version of an 18 with a little larger cup diameter. That only added $50.00 to the retail cost of a standard 18, and he even sent me a CNC trace email for me to cut out and try out.
I suggest that instead of mixing-and-matching that you contact various manufacturers of modular component mouthpieces and see which one of them might already have components in their line which will do what you are wanting to do. The interrelationship between the various parts of a mouthpiece can either compliment each other to help a person get their best tone, range and intonation, or something that looks good on paper can fall completely flat and not work at all for a particular player, horn combination, or repertoire. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 892 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: |
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hello Johnny
if you follow iiipopes' advice that is a good one, maybe have a look to Dario's Frate mpcs, he has a great choice of options
best |
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BeemanBrassWorks New Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 5
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Pickett does great mouthpiece copies - but the wait can take a while depending on how backed up they are. Last time I spoke with Stork and Parke they told me they aren't doing copies anymore. Curry does good work, but he can be difficult to reach.
For a direct copy I would recommend going with Pickett. He always does excellent work. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1719 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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The biggest problem is likely to be tolerances... it doesn't take very much inaccuracy to wind up with a piece that doesn't quite have the magic of the one it's copied from, to say nothing of not *feeling* quite like the piece it was copied from (which is likely anyway, scratching from everyday use is going to make a difference regardless).
There have been several that have made clearly top quality goods (and consistent enough that I'd trust another I bought to play as well as the ones I own)... but none quite like Breslmair (and for the record, I haven't used one in a long time) - the majority of what they make are 3-piece and the parts fit together with surgical precision EVERY time, there's no slight mismatches, there's no wiggling things around while you tighten up to make sure it's aligned, they're just manufactured to extremely tight tolerance and it shows... it takes a lot to impress me, but a company that anal about its tolerances definitely makes you sit up and take note. |
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Vince.Green Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 148
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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You can also try Frost Custom Brass. Matt does great work and is good with turn around. I do think no matter how good the copy it will likely always feel a bit different. Might feel a bit better or might be a bit less desirable, it's tough to get an exact match no matter where you go.
Last edited by Vince.Green on Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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a.kemp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 675 Location: NYC
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Ditto on Frost Custom Brass. Quick turn around.
And, Greg Black too. Might be the most accurate at duplicating.... |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: |
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sometimes its relatively easy to get a good copy.
there are two basic ways to do it:
1) computer "CMM" method which uses a probe to bounce around inside the mouthpiece for a whle which makes "cloud" of points that get imported into a CAD design system, which then in turn enables a CNC machine lathe to cut a new piece following the curves and dimensions that the probe felt when it was bouncing around. The room for error is basically the accuracy of the probe, and the accuracy of the setup of the CNC lathe. Things can go fairly wrong.
2) the manual lathe using a "form" or "impression". Here a "mold" or impression is made using epoxy (in the old days they would use lead). Once the impression is made of the cup and rim, its is cut in half. It does ot have to cut exactly in half because it s a 3 dimensional thing. The mouthpiece maker cuts the new piece freehand until the impression fits exactly into the new piece, outer rim all the way down to the very bottom. Its a matter of removing material from the piece where ever the impression touches the piece being cut. SOmetimes its handy to use dry erase ink on the piece and then see where the impression wipes off the ink. Cut where the ink gets wiped off. After a while its pretty easy to get very close. The last couple thousandths can be tricky though. When its right (zero gap), the impression appears to melt right into the piece with no line. If there is a line there is a space, even if its only about .001 or .002. That pretty close. Problems arise all the time when copying old mouthpieces, which make it really hard to get it to zero or even about .004 to .006. That is when the original piece was out of round and not symetrical. The form shows basically a cross section of the shape and size. If the impression would have been cut in half at a different clock point, the shape and size would be different. There is no real way to copy the non-concentricity of a piece that i have figured out. Most pieces made by bach, al cass, charlie allen, dinicola, zottola buescher, etc before the CNC era have some amount of non-concentricity. SOmetimes it's a LOT, and those one sthat are way off are often times the MAGIC ones that somebody loves and wants copied.
If you make an impression of your original, and then get a CNC copy made, you can check the accuracy with the impression. CNC is not that great if you ask me. Ive found that the best (only) way to get a good CNC copy is to have it made, then check against the impression, and then adjust the drawing on the screen to get closer, and than make another one, check it etc until the impression fits good. THEN your drawing and measurements are right and you can make a thousand all the same and they come out great.
Making a manual copy accurately is a matter of skill patience and also depends on the concentricity of the original. Its fairly easy to get to within .002 (a uniform visible line but no space between the impression and workpiece), which is pretty close. Getting to .001 is harder and most times impossible. SOmetimes its easy to get right to zero, but then the buffing phase takes off about .001 (more if not careful!) so sometimes that last little bit should be done with buffing compound on a rag just until the line disappears. and then dont hit with the buffing wheel at all. And then silver plating enters the picture. Ive never noticed much dif after the plating process, but have had guys complain that before plating it was right, and after it was too small. There is usually two weeks in between there so hard to say if you ask me. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Best Mouthpiece Copy maker? |
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Johnny155 wrote: | Hi all - I have a special trumpet mouthpiece made by putting together various different components...I was interested in having it copied into a one piece...has anyone done something similar, and what’s the result been? How accurate of a Copy was it? How long did it take? Who did you use? Stork, Pickett, parke? |
Hi johnny155
I have always used Jim New for this kind of work. I am however not sure now that he has his own mouthpiece business as James R New rather than working for Kanstul, whether he currently has the equipment to scan a mouthpiece.
He scanned the cup end of my 2005 Bach 3C mouthpiece when he was at Kanstul, and he has made me quite a few modular top copies, some whilst he was at Kanstul and some since he has been in business as James R New. He however already had the scan of the top end of my mouthpiece from when he scanned it originally.
I would say that the copies do feel the same as the original, the only difference in my opinion being a slightly different feel to the silver-plating, which in my opinion isn't just owing to the copies being new whilst my old mouthpiece has developed some wear and small surface scratches, but also owing to the plating being slightly different in my opinion to that of my original Bach mouthpiece.
The one thing I would definitely say is that the copies are indistinguishable from each other, even those made in 2009 whilst Jim New was at Kanstul, and those made last year as James R New. The only difference is a slight difference in blank style, which was my choice. I could have opted to have gone for the Kanstul style blank rather than the James R New blank. I only use the Kanstul/James R New copies, so all my mouthpieces feel just the same.
Basically, in a nut shell, the copies are not only similar enough to the original, they are then repeatable, with the copies being all the same as each other. Additionally, I have always found Jim New's prices to be very reasonable. The figure quoted by iiipopes was for a tuba mouthpiece, which makes a difference.
I have never had my backbore copied, because Jim New can make a standard Bach 10 backbore, and it was the rim and cup I particularly wanted copied from my original mouthpiece, rather than the backbore.
Since I've since had my mouthpieces sleeved, they are all three piece mouthpieces. This doesn't bother me in the slightest. However since your mouthpiece sounds unique, it would probably make sense to have at least the cup end copied.
Somebody like Jim New could probably recreate the backbore from simply knowing what it is.
I really hope that this will help.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Karl Hammond.
R. Tomasek |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Backbore tools, to my knowledge there is no single point tool that can cut a duplicate of the backbore. A reamer would need to be fabricate. This is where it gets expensive. There are some pieces that use more than one reamer to create the backbone shape. Good luck with this… please let us know how it turns out.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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breden Regular Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2007 Posts: 33
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Frost custom mouthpieces out of Seattle is my pick as well. Recently had Matt do a duplication of a Monette mouthpiece and he did a fantastic job. The copy was spot on and he was really easy to work with. Turn around was great and he has an extensive list of mouthpiece services on his website. |
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Dave CCM/SSO Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 145 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I second Karl Hammond, though I'd recommend trying his stuff first. Odds are he knows a lot more about what makes a mouthpiece awesome than the majority of us. If you really want a copy, he can do it extremely well. _________________ Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
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George Coble Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 145
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I remember well asking Bob Giardinelli to copy my favorite trumpet mouthpiece in the early 1970s. At that time, everyone said they could copy your mouthpiece; trouble was they simply made their closest mouthpiece to what you thought you wanted. Bob's copy was not remotely close.
Now, transfer to today and we have Karl Hammond. A while back, I sent to Karl my Bach Mt Vernon 1 1/2C mouthpiece that I used for a lifetime and he copied it perfectly. In the dark, I could not tell the difference between Karl's and the original.
Copying a trumpet mouthpiece is a "be careful what you wish for" situation and over the past years my 'perfect' Karl Hammond copy evolved from an exact original to finally using Karl's #5 backbore, which worked even better for me than the original.
Good luck.
George Coble |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Best Mouthpiece Copy maker? |
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Louise Finch wrote: | The figure quoted by iiipopes was for a tuba mouthpiece, which makes a difference. |
Lou is correct. The whole point of my original post is that by using a manufacturer's stock combinations, as opposed to a completely custom mouthpiece, the cost will be about one-half of a totally custom mouthpiece. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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Dan in Sydney Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 257 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Matt Frost---frostcustombrass.net---might be an exception here. I don't think he charges any more for custom duplications. He's got quite a range of duplicated rims, cups and backbores that he can make in any size, and his sleeves are the screw-on type. Far superior to having rubber o-rings in your piece.
He made a copy of my Mt. Vernon 1C which I feel is at least as good as the original, and the "MTV" backbore he has in his backbore range is a copy from that piece.
For orchestral playing, his "MVD" cup is outstanding, especially paired with his number 10 backbore. _________________ Principal Trumpet,
Sydney Symphony (1978-2011)
Lecturer in Trumpet, Australian National University 1990-2010
Bach Artist and Clinician, Soloist
http://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/artist-information/centerstage/artist-roster/daniel-mendelow/ |
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