Question to Xeno II owners about thinner valve casing

[abundrefo]

Hello,

One of the features of the Xeno II line is thinner valve casing and pistons.
I do notice this a great feature and I can feel how this helps with response.

But I was doing some tests with my a month-and-a-half old 8355II and I noticed something. It seems this trumpet responds very different depending on how tight I screw the top caps back, let's say, after I oil the valves.

When I was testing the trumpet at the store I really did not pay attention to that, and after I oiled the trumpet in the test room I just screwed the caps back on as fast as I could so I could get back to playing the horn.

These last days, I tried screwing the top caps all the way, until they were really tight, and the horn played different. It clearly changed the response of the instrument.

So, my guess is that with this thinner valve casing, I need to screw gently and stop screwing when the caps touch the casing. Then, I give it a very delicate extra twist so it won't get loose while I'm playing.

Have you ever noticed this with your Xeno II trumpet?

Thank you.

[dstdenis]

No, I haven't noticed this, but I can imagine that over-tightening the caps could have an effect. I stop turning the caps as soon as I feel they're reaching the end of the threads. I developed this habit way back when I was a kid because I was worried the caps might get stuck.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[abundrefo]

[jengstrom]

Yes, this concept was demonstrated to me by a teacher many moons ago. Top caps, bottom caps, even how tight the water key spring pin is. Perhaps your new Xeno is more sensitive to this than some horns, but pretty much all of them are affected to some extent. Play around with the other things I mentioned and see if you notice a difference. In general, I have found that less tight on any of these things allows more resonance. To put it another way, tightening these things up dampens any ringing qualities that might be inherent in your instrument.

You might say, then, "Why don't I just remove the bottom caps altogether?" Because the mass of the caps can have a positive effect on resonance. That's why some people use heavy caps in strategic places. But that's another topic.

John
_________________
Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc

[Ed Kennedy]

With the top caps this would also have a minute effect on the valve alignment. (Yet another variable.)

[Rod Haney]

Have you considered the slight alignment change that would occur when the caps go further down. I don't know how far you are talking about but the shrouding could change enough to be noticeable. Just a thought.
Rod

[Bflatman]

Valve alignment will not be affected

[LittleRusty]

Just as putting on thinner or thicker felts, not screwing your valve caps in enough changes your valve alignment.

[jadickson]

I'm sure it makes some difference. You are changing the amount of tension, which will change the way the whole instrument vibrates.

Tightening the screw on the water key will change the way it plays too. It sounds nuts but it's true.
_________________
Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com

[Brad361]

[Brad361]

[abundrefo]

I checked valve alignment with my borescope and the difference between (A) where caps are reaching the end of the threads and (B) the point where they are really tight doesn't seem to affect it very much.

But, on a daily basis, I could clearly notice the difference between (A) and (B) in the way it affects resonance and upper register openness. I do believe the thinner valve casing is much more sensitive to this.
There is definitely a sweet spot and I feel I should be able to control it.

To my surprise, the first time I checked it at home, the top cap threads on valve 1 seemed to be the tightest, 3 not so tight and 2 with a bit more room to turn. That can be very annoying because every time I oiled the valves I was getting a different feeling from "unscrewing/screwing back" each of the three caps and this takes away the usually "automatic" procedure of oiling my valves.

I never got to check this at the store. The horn played amazingly well when I bought it! I may have switched top caps after I washed the trumpet for the first time, but that never changed anything with my previous (regular weight valve casing) horns. But, either way, this may have been a slight quality control issue that I was trying to fix.

But yesterday I did two things that may have solved the problem:
1- I switched caps 2 and 3 and it got a little bit better.
2- I put a bit of Ultra-Pure heavy grease on the treads.

That made the unscrewing/screwing procedure much more even and smooth. And now I'm hoping every time I oil my valves I get the exact same resonance and upper register openness.

[Louise Finch]

Hi abundrefo

I haven't noticed this issue with my Xeno II in particular, over and above what I've found with my other instruments. I always tighten valve caps so that they are just tight, and don't switch the valve caps when I clean my instruments.

Maybe the thinner valve casing of the Xeno II increases the effect of the valve caps being screwed on too tightly, I just don't know as I haven't tried it, but
in my opinion, you get this same effect with all valved brass instruments.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Jerry]

After seeing this thread a few days ago, I experimented by loosening the spit valve, third slide stop screw, and top & bottom valve caps on my Schilke C3Lb. The results were astonishing: the horn resonated like crazy and sounded incredibly alive. I then did the same thing to my Schilke P5-4, with similar results.

The real test will be playing these horns set up this way at an orchestra rehearsal tomorrow night.

[abundrefo]