Why would two examples of the same model play differently?

[Robert P]

Presumably using the same set of specs, same mandrels, same lathes etc., same techniques and measuring tools, made out of stock that's been inspected. I assume the techs who make them are hired based on demonstrated skill and knowledge, surely their work must be subject to QC inspection.

Particularly in the case of "big name" makers how would there be enough variation between two instruments that make it out the door for it to be noticeable in the way they play? Or with boutique makers whose whole pitch is obsessive attention to detail, impeccable craftmanship, supposed superior insight into the physics and special sauce black magic, dedication to their craft, yada yada, to justify the boutique price tag.
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Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel

[brassmusician]

I was surprised to learn that even Yamahas, with their reputation for consistent manufacture, can play a differently even when the same model. My guess is no two horns are assembled exactly the same. And remember that on some makes of horn, changing which valve cap is on the end of which valve, can make a horn respond differently, so it doesn't take much for a sensitive player to feel a difference. Also how tight the spit valves are screwed can make a difference.

[royjohn]

Well, for starters:

* variation in tubing and bell thickness
* bell annealing variations
* differences in the "gap"
* valve alignment
* stress in assembly
* different placement of braces
* variations in assembly, gaps in tubing
* spit valve tightness (as already stated)
* differences in curves of the bell bow, tuning slide
* solder blobs, leaks, other assembly problems
* weight of valves and valve caps
There are probably other things I haven't thought of or don't know about. It just isn't possible to make two identical horns.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[TKSop]

"Stack of tolerances"
Essentially, everything can be within spec and the overall result still be noticeably different.

Valve alignment is probably the easiest place to see this in action - every part could be within spec and yet the alignment be imperfect... Say, for example, you've got a felt that's the thinnest it's allowed to be, valve stem that's as thin vertically as it's allowed to be (where the felt sits), barrel that's as short as it's allowed to be and valve ports drilled the highest they're allowed to be... Individually these tolerances might look very tight indeed, but if you stack up a bunch that are all at one extreme of it, they'll stack up as if one part were noticeably out of spec.

Add up lots of these things - gap, slight bore irregularities, solder blobs, slight variances in profile.... It all adds up to noticeable but acceptable differences

[jengstrom]

Every specification on the horn, from alignment of valves and tubing, to metallurgy of the brass, thickness of the bell and tubing, variation in solder joints, gap, tubing bend and roundness, and more, has variation and, therefore, a specification tolerance, since NONE of these things are the same, ever. The way the various variables add up affects how the final product performs, even when the specs are all within acceptable tolerances.

A good example is cars. You can line up 5 cars of the same model, optioned identically, painted the same color. They will all drive slightly different. One may be very reliable and another may be a maintenance nightmare. One may rust sooner than the rest, even exposed to identical environments. No two cars are alike.

No two supposedly identical products of any type are ever absolutely identical. Some companies just do a better job of controlling the variables than others.

John
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Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc

[shofarguy]

There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical, nor do any two behave identically during manufacture. Therefore, no two parts are identical.

All else aside, I bet this one truth accounts for the lion's share of the differences we feel and hear.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[jadickson]

The way the pieces are put together really matters.

A few years ago, I played around with customizing an Ambassador. Taught myself how to solder (poorly). I can testify that taking a part of it apart and putting it back together, without changing any of the parts, had a huge impact on how it played.

[kehaulani]

Arguments like this are for the engineering minded. No harm done. Have fun.

But the real thing is that horns have always been different from each other, just accept it. Human variance. And for the musician, the how is not so important as simply the end result - which plays best for you.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[mm55]

[yourbrass]

I call it the "X factor." It can't be measured or seen necessarily, but it is very real. And yes, every brand has variations in the way they play from horn to horn of the same model.

The two examples from my experience that stand out:

Back in the late 70's I worked in Larry Souza's repair shop and he sold Benge trumpets. A very fine player was coming in to try horns and we had ten CG Benges lined up on the bench. Two of them were marvelous and a couple weren't so good, and the rest ranged between those extremes.

I had an opportunity a couple of years ago to try maybe ten YTR-8335LA Bergeron models. Same thing, two of them were incredible instruments, a couple weren't so good, and the rest were in between.

Unfortunately, it's become almost impossible to have the luxury of this kind of selection, most surviving music stores simply can't afford to stock a lot of horns. Those were the days.

-Lionel
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[Bflatman]

One pencil feels and operates the same as another of the same specification, one screwdriver feels and operates the same as another of the same batch.

The simpler the product the more alike the examples are. The more complex the more variance there can be.

An assembly is the culmination of all its parts and manufacturing variance leads to characteristics that can add together and lead the entire assembly to depart from expected behavior. Some departure is good and leads to better performance some is bad and leads to poor performance.

The creation of a motor vehicle is shared between design engineers and assembly workers, the creation of a house is shared between architect and builder, the creation of a musical instrument is shared between the designer and the builder.

Friday cars exist, even friday houses exist. Friday instruments exist.

A designer can optimise the performance of the instrument by great design so that it could be wonderful, and poor assembly can turn any of those instruments into mush.

[brassmusician]

One way to circumvent some of the problem of buying a horn without the luxury of trying many versions of the same model is to buy a horn that is tweaked during final assembly the manufacturer who is also a very good player. For example they test the right position of the braces and even find the best bell etc. I am thinking Scodwell, Trent Austin does final tweaks on some of his own brand, Harrelson, there are others. Alternatively, buy a horn and send it to an after market tweaker.

[JoeLoeffler]

There is a giant stack of places where there could be variations on small scales. Lots of things matter. In my experience, more things seem to matter on C trumpet than on Bb. (Or at least the players who are serious pro C trumpet players seem to be more sensitive [or care more] than Bb players...)

One thing that you can easily experiment with...

Try clocking your mouthpiece. Note the rotational position of your mouthpiece. Play a simple one octave F major scale. Note the sound and playing characteristics. Turn it 1/4 turn. Play the scale again. Lather, rinse, repeat for the 4 cardinal positions. Sometimes there is a huge difference between positions, sometimes not. Usually positions 180 degrees apart are similar. There is however, generally one spot that plays best.

This clocking works with tuning bits in flugelhorns and piccolo trumpets and with things like Reeves Sleeves. The maddening thing relevant to this discussion is that if you unsolder and clock the lead pipe of a Bb or C trumpet, huge variations in playing characteristics present themselves...

[Ed Kennedy]

[TrumpetMadness]

[lipshurt]

The thing that varies the most is where the lead pipe is cut on the mandrel. When the pipe is drawn it is too long. It needs to be trimmed on both ends. You can’t measure the inside of the pipe where you plan to cut. It is usually cut a little too small so one of the final steps in assembly is when the tester “sets the Venturi”. The small end of the pipe is opened up to spec which is something like .346 usually but can be between 330 (connstellation) and 368 (selmer b700, CG Benge etc). If the pipe has to be opened .003 that means that the whole pipe is .003 out of spec all the way down the pipe (too small) and it will play tighter. And .003 is not that far off for cutting a pipe.
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[shofarguy]

[LittleRusty]

[mm55]

[shofarguy]