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Physical Approach and Long Tones?



 
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bsharp82
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Physical Approach and Long Tones? Reply with quote

Hi All,

Newbie here , but learning all I can, enjoying the gradual process of development and hopefully improving!

Can anyone shed some light on Physical Approach? I'm especially confused about the Part II exercises in Lessons 16 and 23 where the last notes are supposed to be held long or not? I read somewhere that Claude Gordon meant the long holds to strengthen the blowing muscles of the upper-body and not meant to tax the lip muscles. I notice that after playing the long holds above G in the staff my lips become all stiff the next day.

Thanks all!
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HornnOOb
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: Physical Approach and Long Tones? Reply with quote

bsharp82 wrote:
Hi All,

Newbie here , but learning all I can, enjoying the gradual process of development and hopefully improving!

Can anyone shed some light on Physical Approach? I'm especially confused about the Part II exercises in Lessons 16 and 23 where the last notes are supposed to be held long or not? I read somewhere that Claude Gordon meant the long holds to strengthen the blowing muscles of the upper-body and not meant to tax the lip muscles. I notice that after playing the long holds above G in the staff my lips become all stiff the next day.

Thanks all!


What I can suggest, is that you take a deep breath and play your long tones as evenly and consistently as you can and blow your full breath through the horn, even if the trumpet sound stops. While blowing long tones, listen to your tone and make small adjustments as needed to find the tone quality you are happy with.
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Martinharris
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t do long tones, they just make you stiff really quickly.
I do play exercises and flow studies with “long” notes in, but they’re musical length, like maximum 5 seconds. Holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music.
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homecookin
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martinharris wrote:
Don’t do long tones, they just make you stiff really quickly.
I do play exercises and flow studies with “long” notes in, but they’re musical length, like maximum 5 seconds. Holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music.



Long tones are very important.
"Flow Studies" are not the same as long tones.
Of course, if you do too many long tones for too long a time,
then your embouchure will stiffen up some.
That certainly does not mean you should totally eliminate long tones
from your practice.
And... to say that... "holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music",
indicates (at least, to me) this person does not understand the principle behind
practicing long tones.
They are musical exercises, not musical excerpts.
I am certainly not an expert in the Claude Gordon method, and I
never studied with Claude, but I have had substantial experience
in practicing his method.
I do know this... if you practice the Claude Gordon method
in the manner he prescribes and outlines in his remarks in the book,
you will have success.
There are a couple of guys that post regular here on TH that have
studied with Claude Gordon...John Mohan, and Jeff Purtle.
I'm sure they can offer you better insight and advice.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discussion on long tones in CG forum:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=142203


Warm regards,
Grits
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George Coble
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music" is most definitely not true. Anyone who has played the music of Richard Strauss specifically his "Don Juan" or "Die Frau one Schatten" knows otherwise. Also, many of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies are sprinkled with 20 seconds plus long tones.

Good luck.

George Coble
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homecookin wrote:
Long tones are very important.
"Flow Studies" are not the same as long tones.
Of course, if you do too many long tones for too long a time,
then your embouchure will stiffen up some.
That certainly does not mean you should totally eliminate long tones
from your practice.
And... to say that... "holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music",
indicates (at least, to me) this person does not understand the principle behind
practicing long tones.
They are musical exercises, not musical excerpts.

Beautiful summary.

And long tones are very relevant for the things I play, and not just because they're long.

For example, the very first thing in the trumpet 1 part to Russian Christmas Music by Alfred Reed is a 4th space E, which starts soft, crescendos to loud, then decrescendos to soft again over 8 beats at a slow tempo—a classic long tone exercise, and very difficult to play in tune and with a good sound if you haven't been practicing long tones. You could practice Clarke 2 all you want (and you should, but for different reasons) and you still wouldn't be well-prepared to play this excerpt.

And then there's the ending to the Kenneth Singleton arrangement of The Promise of Living, by Aaron Copland (handwritten note above: "Tank up!"). Definitely a very long tone.

The all-time longest tone I've seen is at the end of Arlington, by Paul Murtha, which requires a solo trumpet to hold a note for about 20-30 seconds, depending on the cruelty of the conductor.

I realize this is the CG forum, which doesn't advocate traditional long tones exercises, which is fine by me. Just thought I'd share how important and relevant these exercises have been for me.
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martinharris wrote:
Don’t do long tones, they just make you stiff really quickly.
I do play exercises and flow studies with “long” notes in, but they’re musical length, like maximum 5 seconds. Holding a note for 20 seconds is never required in music.


Rhapsody in Brass - Dean Goffin

Famous Brass Band piece, 2nd movement ends with soprano cornet holding I believe a concert G (on top of staff) for 20 seconds or more (depending on conductor) - oh make it at p-mp also.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Claude did not believe in the practice of long tones (and neither did Herbert L. Clarke). They both felt it better to be doing something other than just holding a note for a long time. That's why in the advanced form of the Clarke Technical Studies one plays each exercise over and over very quietly in order to develop wind control. That way, while developing that wind control, one is also developing flexibility and fingers.

The Part One exercises in Systematic Approach are not considered to be "Long Tone Exercises" because they are not played in the way typical long tone exercises are played. When holding the last note of each Part One exercise the goal is not to play quietly and see how long one can hold the note the way one does with typical long tone exercises. The point is to play in a full comfortable volume, and as one runs out of air one is supposed to try to crescendo the note (even though one won't be able to since almost empty of air) and really squeeze and work the blowing muscles.

Personally, before studying with Claude I practiced long tone exercises all the time, as they were assigned to me by most if not all my former teachers. In retrospect the main thing they did was cause over-practice problems, worn out face muscles and sore lips.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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The above was from the previously mentioned previous thread in the CG forum concerning long tones.

I will add that though one doesn't strive to see how long he or she can hold the last notes during the Systematic Approach Part 1 exercises, given that one is taking a full breath at the beginning of each exercise, and allowed to take breaths at any point during each exercise, and holding out the last notes of each exercise as long as there is air and longer (with an attempted crescendo at the end to really work the blowing muscles) one does sustain those last notes for anywhere between around 10 to 20 seconds (the lowest pedal notes don't last long, but the middle range notes can), so one will get all the same developmental benefits of a typical long tone exercise (working on a good, steady, pure tone - assuming the player concentrates on creating a good, steady, pure tone while sustaining the note and doesn't let his or her mind wander), while also getting the air power development with the attempted crescendo at the end.

Sorry for the rather long sentence!

As for what Herbert L. Clarke thought of typical long tone exercises, here, have a look:


https://s25.postimg.org/v9tx0vb33/Clarke_s_Thoughts_on_Long_Tones.jpg
(Click on the image to open it up full sized in a separate window)

Cheers,

John Mohan
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read many threads debating the usefulness of long tones. (And I have no answers to share!)

However, I would ask if perhaps Gordon's and Clarke's stance is more a matter of personal perception. Let me attempt to explain:

Let's take Herbert Clarke, I don't know if this is true but I thought I read somewhere that he just started practicing five hours a day when he was younger: 1 hour long tones, 1 hr technique, 1 hr solos, ... etc. So eventually he becomes a virtuoso and starts refining both his personal practice and what eventually becomes his teaching method. However, at this point he has already put his 10,000 hrs +++++ practice in and his fundamentals are at such a refined level that long tones are really no longer needed/useful for him.

Now, please don't kill me on historical accuracy because I just made that little scenario up in order to ask the following question: Do you think it possible that Clarke's/Gordon's views/statements on long tones could apply differently to people based on their underlying fundamentals?

Again, I am not arguing a point, rather I am asking for those with a certain opinion to consider whether personal history affects their philosophy.

Thanks.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think their opinions were based on their many years of personal experience as highly successful players and highly successful teachers. Herbert L. Clarke wrote a series of autobiographical sketches that first appeared in Fillmore's Musical Messenger, that have been compiled into a book titled How I became a cornetist. It's available as a PDF download from the Kalamazoo Library:

https://www.kpl.gov/uploadedFiles/Local_History/Essays_All_About_Kalamazoo_History/biographies/herbert-lincoln-clarke.pdf

Claude Gordon wrote of his experiences as a struggling young player, too, in his book Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing.

Both tales are very familiar to anyone who has struggled to achieve ability on our instrument. Both men tried each and every "idea", "theory" and "method" to achieve success. As Claude used to say, he thought he was a good teacher because he "had learned every wrong way to practice."

Though both tried all kinds of techniques and practice methods over the years including long tones, in the end, the practice of typical long tone exercises was not something either man thought to be worthy of one's time.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Physical Approach and Long Tones? Reply with quote

bsharp82 wrote:
Hi All,

Newbie here , but learning all I can, enjoying the gradual process of development and hopefully improving!

Can anyone shed some light on Physical Approach? I'm especially confused about the Part II exercises in Lessons 16 and 23 where the last notes are supposed to be held long or not? I read somewhere that Claude Gordon meant the long holds to strengthen the blowing muscles of the upper-body and not meant to tax the lip muscles. I notice that after playing the long holds above G in the staff my lips become all stiff the next day.

Thanks all!


Eliminate the long holds above G from your routine for now. They are too taxing for many developing players (not just you). Also, note that after Claude wrote Physical Approach he came to the conclusion that the supplementary material assigned out of the St Jacome book was a little too advanced for most beginners, and he instead would assign the beginning exercises in Herbert L. Clarke's book Elementary Studies for the Cornet.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comebackcornet wrote:
Do you think it possible that Clarke's/Gordon's views/statements on long tones could apply differently to people based on their underlying fundamentals?

Again, I am not arguing a point, rather I am asking for those with a certain opinion to consider whether personal history affects their philosophy.

I think that one's point of view on the usefulness of long tones is based upon several things, but primarily:

1. persuasiveness of teachers and role models who advocate or discourage them,
2. belief or disbelief that they're relevant and useful, and
3. experience of success or failure in using them.

I never had a teacher who assigned long tones, so I never did them until a few years ago when I learned about some famous players I admire who said long tones are valuable. Before then, I held no opinion of long tones, pro or con, so I wasn't biased either way. I was fortunate to find a good source of info on how to do them properly, and I could tell right away that this was something that would help me. Wish I'd started sooner.

comebackcornet wrote:
at this point [Clarke] has already put his 10,000 hrs +++++ practice in and his fundamentals are at such a refined level that long tones are really no longer needed/useful for him.

The long tone proponents I know of seem to promote them as a regular part of a routine for players at any level. Not something one outgrows.
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