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Struggling to keep a flat chin


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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although many (seemingly most) of the great high register players that we admire (Maynard, Doc, Bill Chase, Lynn Nicholson, Wayne Bergeron, Roger Ingram) play with flat chins, a bunched chin is not the kiss of death to upper register playing. Carl Fischer is another guy with a great upper register who bunches his chin and his high G is way fatter, louder, and more centered than a lot of the flat-chin lead players. It really depends on your physical makeup. Some guys just can't play with flat chins--period. So don't fight it. Work with what you have.

What helped me to be able to play the upper register was pedal tones. Go to YouTube and watch K.O. Skinsnes' video called "Jim Manley, Arturo Sandoval, and Frickin' Science" and listen to what he has to say here. This provides some of the basis for why you should want to practice pedal tones.

For me, mastering the ability to play down the scale to low pedal C using all of the original fingerings of the notes on the horn actually forced me to make changes in the way I used the muscles of the embouchure to produce those notes. And it was important to NOT move the mouthpiece around on the lips in order to get the notes out. It's all about aperture control. Keep the hermetic seal of contact of the mouthpiece on the lips. It may even force you to move the placement of the mouthpiece slightly to a place where you can play the pedals and the rest of the horn. The ultimate goal is one embouchure for the whole range of the horn. If that sounds contradictory, I'll rephrase it to say that yes, you might have to change the mouthpiece placement slightly to get the pedals out (vertically or laterally) but once you settle on a place, keep it there for the whole range of the horn. I know that some players (purportedly such as Arturo and Walt Johnson) have a "shift" into high gear for the upper register. That's not something that everyone can pull off and it shouldn't be the goal.

Once I was able to play all of the pedal tones chromatically from F down to single pedal C, using all the original fingerings, I then maintained that same embouchure to play the normal range of the horn. Then my range kept going up and up and up.

When you first try to play the single pedal C with open fingering, the A or B below it wants to come out. You have to keep trying to lip it up. It may take a long time, but eventually, you'll get there and be able to play that single pedal C with no valves. Don't overthink what you are doing physically. Put away the mirror and just concentrate on getting the pedals and getting a good sound everywhere else.

The stuff to practice once you can play chromatically down to single pedal C are a lot the stuff Bill Adam used to teach. Expanding scales, flow studies, things like that in which you are trying to keep a consistent sound and healthy flow of air throughout your range.

I know that pedal tones are a controversial topic for many. Some people claim that pedal tones can destroy a player, citing Bud Brisbois as an example. They say that he couldn't play pedal tones and when he tried, it used to screw him up royally. But my response to that is that Bud was an incredible high note player, but I don't think he had a very good sound at all. Did you ever hear those recordings of him TRYING to play a piccolo trumpet? He sounded like ass on that thing and he was constantly getting that chippy, double-buzzy sound on his attacks that some people get when they are playing piccolo while very fatigued and start squeezing notes out. So while his embouchure was obviously effective for the extreme high register, it wasn't mechanically correct enough to sound beautiful on the rest of the range of the horn. In other words, his embouchure was "quirky." The goal for trumpet players should not be to play like Bud Brisbois and get his kind of sound. It should be to be able to play high, but sound good on everything else that you play too, including classical music.

I myself used to question the validity of pedal tones. I thought, how in the world does playing extremely low notes and get all of these crazy farting sounds out of the trumpet help develop the high register? I was thinking solely of muscular development, which is not what pedal tones do. I asked some people who were great upper register players who practiced pedal tones how they felt pedal tones helped their upper registers. One said "well, I think it gets you to 'open up.'" Again, I didn't see the logic in this because you don't "open up" to play in the high register, you actually close the aperture to get there.

But what I came to realize after practicing pedal tones and having success with them is that it's not about "opening up." And the pedal tones don't develop the muscle strength required for high notes. What the pedal tones DO, is a couple of things. They force you to get the lips to operate in a more balanced fashion. They train you to use both the upper and lower lip somewhat close to equally so that one or the other does not incur an undue portion of the workload. Pedal tones help you get the "machine" that produces the notes to operate in a fashion such that you will be able to play the whole range of the horn from extreme low to extreme high. They force you to adopt the playing mannerisms that will work the most efficiently. They get you to make the trumpet embouchure more like a correct flute embouchure. Those of you (few as they may be) who play both trumpet and flute might be able to relate to what I'm talking about.

You can actually say that in a sense, pedal tones CORRECT embouchure problems. And this is really the beautiful thing about pedal tones, because they do what a teacher CAN'T do. No teacher can really tell definitively what you're doing inside the rim of a mouthpiece. Sure, they can look at you through a clear mouthpiece or a visualizer, but that only helps to an extent. Furthermore, a teacher can't effectively teach what the correct embouchure mechanics and mannerisms FEEL like. The correct feel is something that you simply have to experience, remember, and imprint on your muscle memory. Pedal tones teach you what a good embouchure feels like and then you can use this in the rest of your playing.

So my humble advice to you would be to stop worrying about the fact that you can't get away from the bunched chin. I know it looks terrible; gives you this "bulldog face" look while you're playing, which is not attractive to chicks and it doesn't have that "military" look. But, when the chicks hear you play the high notes, they'll forget all about the bulldog face.

Get into pedal tones, man, I'm tellin' ya. They will get you headed in the right direction. The information that I've just shared in this post did for me what many years and lots of money with many different teachers DID NOT do. Keep in mind that quite often YOU are your own best teacher.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
dstdenis wrote:
I noticed Dowdswell's chin did flex upward as he played high and loud. I've noticed that Steve Dillard's chin does the same thing in his Horntrader demo videos. I don't think that's a problem, though, because they still have a very strong, firm chin that's supporting their embouchure.

Ya think!? Two very versatile players who don't appear to have any kind of chops limitations, and you don't think it's a problem that their chin flexes upward? Why thank you for that analysis and conclusion! LOL!

Er, you're welcome, I think. This is a contentious issue, and I was agreeing with you that players like Dowdswell and Dillard are obviously doing fine.

This is a hard topic to discuss because of the terminology used when teachers try to help students who have a weak, floppy chin that's messing up their playing. A teacher will instruct the player to "flatten your chin" and the flat-chin debate starts. Yet it's clear that something has to be communicated to the student to help him/her fix the weak, floppy chin.
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
trickg wrote:
dstdenis wrote:
I noticed Dowdswell's chin did flex upward as he played high and loud. I've noticed that Steve Dillard's chin does the same thing in his Horntrader demo videos. I don't think that's a problem, though, because they still have a very strong, firm chin that's supporting their embouchure.

Ya think!? Two very versatile players who don't appear to have any kind of chops limitations, and you don't think it's a problem that their chin flexes upward? Why thank you for that analysis and conclusion! LOL!

Er, you're welcome, I think. This is a contentious issue, and I was agreeing with you that players like Dowdswell and Dillard are obviously doing fine.

This is a hard topic to discuss because of the terminology used when teachers try to help students who have a weak, floppy chin that's messing up their playing. A teacher will instruct the player to "flatten your chin" and the flat-chin debate starts. Yet it's clear that something has to be communicated to the student to help him/her fix the weak, floppy chin.


It's not a safe assumption so think that a bunched chin is "floppy" or "weak." When the chin bunches up, it's actually providing support to the muscles underneath the mouthpiece, so one could just as easily argue that a bunched chin embouchure is even stronger than a flat chin embouchure.

The whole premise of Jerome Callet's "SUPERCHOPS" embouchure was that it was a very strong, powerful upper register embouchure and this embouchure included a bunched chin. Harry James was his model of the Superchops embouchure bunched chin and all.

Carl Fischer bunches his chin and his high G can knock a door down. Just play the intro of that video of him on YouTube playing "One More Trip to Birdland" with Maynard's band (with Eric Miyashiro as a guest soloist) and watch Eric's reaction to Carl's high G.

Other examples of chin bunchers are Louis Dowdeswell, Jim Morrison, and that other young phenom from Las Vegas, first name is Gio, Gio trumpeter, or Gio Santiago, something like that. All bunched chins.

I've seen early pictures of Arturo Sandoval bunching his chin. Even Maynard, although a flat chin player, that iconic picture of him on the back cover of the MF Horn III album, he can be seen bunching his chin slightly.

So a very strong case can be made that a bunched chin embouchure is a stronger, not a weaker embouchure.

It's also not a safe assumption to assume that all people who teach the trumpet know what they're talking about. Look at all of the teachers who tell their students that they have to place the mouthpiece in the center of their mouth because you want the airstream to go in a straight line. I can't even count the times I've heard uninformed lead trumpet players say that they direct the airstream directly into the throat of the mouthpiece and this gives them their high range. --Clueless!
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
It's not a safe assumption so think that a bunched chin is "floppy" or "weak." When the chin bunches up, it's actually providing support to the muscles underneath the mouthpiece, so one could just as easily argue that a bunched chin embouchure is even stronger than a flat chin embouchure.

That's exactly my point: when people start worrying when the chin moves around, they should consider whether it's strong, or floppy/weak. Players like Dowdswell and Dillard have very strong embouchures and their chins are neither floppy nor weak, even though they move up when they ascend.
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It's also not a safe assumption to assume that all people who teach the trumpet know what they're talking about.

True, although I think most trumpet teachers who've had consistent success with their students have something to offer, even if they don't know everything.

I had trouble with this chin thing a few years ago, and my trumpet teacher at the time didn't know what to do about it. He suggested a few things that didn't work. I went to another trumpet teacher who wasn't sure what to do either, although he gave me fantastic advice about other things that helped me a lot. Both of them offered good advice on other topics, but this particular issue was outside of their experience. I don't criticize or think any the less of them for that.

I do think it would be great if brass players were taught about embouchure issues during their education so they'd be better prepared if they encounter these problems either in their own playing or in working with students.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello Gabriel,
when you say :
"But my response to that is that Bud was an incredible high note player, but I don't think he had a very good sound at all. Did you ever hear those recordings of him TRYING to play a piccolo trumpet? He sounded like ass on that thing and he was constantly getting that chippy, double-buzzy sound on his attacks that some people get when they are playing piccolo while very fatigued and start squeezing notes out. So while his embouchure was obviously effective for the extreme high register, it wasn't mechanically correct enough to sound beautiful on the rest of the range of the horn. In other words, his embouchure was "quirky." The goal for trumpet players should not be to play like Bud Brisbois and get his kind of sound. It should be to be able to play high, but sound good on everything else that you play too, including classical music. "

you can think what you want about his playing and sound in general, and on piccolo particularly, but you shouldn't be so sure of what would cause according to you "sounding like ass."
Try to play piccolo at that level, in the middle of a big band gig.
It's sometimes really difficult to go from lead part to soft flugel part, imagine to piccolo !

I think it has more to do with the fact that when you don't practice enough an instrument, or a mouthpiece, you'll not sound at your best within it, or at worst, you'll sound horrible.
That's why one must practice regularly, if not on a daily basis, most or all his horns and mpcs (at least i'm practicing everyday my lead and deepest mpcs)
Here on TH, i talked about it with Tim Wendt, that play all his horns/mpcs everyday, and with Bobby Shew last time i saw him in april.

best
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
hello Gabriel,
when you say :
"But my response to that is that Bud was an incredible high note player, but I don't think he had a very good sound at all. Did you ever hear those recordings of him TRYING to play a piccolo trumpet? He sounded like ass on that thing and he was constantly getting that chippy, double-buzzy sound on his attacks that some people get when they are playing piccolo while very fatigued and start squeezing notes out. So while his embouchure was obviously effective for the extreme high register, it wasn't mechanically correct enough to sound beautiful on the rest of the range of the horn. In other words, his embouchure was "quirky." The goal for trumpet players should not be to play like Bud Brisbois and get his kind of sound. It should be to be able to play high, but sound good on everything else that you play too, including classical music. "

you can think what you want about his playing and sound in general, and on piccolo particularly, but you shouldn't be so sure of what would cause according to you "sounding like ass."
Try to play piccolo at that level, in the middle of a big band gig.
It's sometimes really difficult to go from lead part to soft flugel part, imagine to piccolo !

I think it has more to do with the fact that when you don't practice enough an instrument, or a mouthpiece, you'll not sound at your best within it, or at worst, you'll sound horrible.
That's why one must practice regularly, if not on a daily basis, most or all his horns and mpcs (at least i'm practicing everyday my lead and deepest mpcs)
Here on TH, i talked about it with Tim Wendt, that play all his horns/mpcs everyday, and with Bobby Shew last time i saw him in april.

best


Regardless of what the conditions were that day that may have caused that particular performance on piccolo, I never liked his sound in general, any time I heard him.

The fact that playing pedal tones caused him trouble confirms that his embouchure was very likely at the root of his sound issues.

For him, in spite of his sound, his high register prowess got him enough work and he didn't need to risk what he could do trying to master things that he couldn't do.

I'm not here to bad mouth Brisbois. The only reason I mentioned him is because people sometimes use the fact that pedal tones were perilous to him as a means to scare people away from pedal tones, as if pedal tones are the "boogie man" or something. They're not. If you're Bud Brisbois and you're getting plenty of work, then fine avoid pedal tones. Just don't ask me to listen 'cause I can't stand that sound.

But if you're someone who can't play in the high register but wishes to, and you're wondering if your bunched chin is the cause, I'm saying don't worry about the bunched chin. Start practicing pedal tones correctly and that in an awful lot of cases can correct whatever is going wrong.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, if we except the piccolo passage in Superstar, he has a very good sound in all registers, and very centered. All qualities one would like to have as lead.
Anyway, i'll not discuss it.

For pedal, it's the same debate, some swear by them, others say pedal don't improve their playing, and others again say they're negative. There are a lot of great lead/soloist players that never practice pedals and you'd not say you don't like their sound or they'd have things to improve....

up to everyone to experiment
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guys who can play high and who never practiced pedals are the lucky few "first chair Johnnies" that already had the proper mechanics going on in their embouchures, so they don't need the pedals.

The assertion that I'm making is that pedals are in a sense, are a rehabilitative tool to get someone who ISN'T using good embouchure mechanics to do so. It gets them to adopt the proper mechanics for their physical makeup.

It avoids all of the trouble of spending a fortune and tons of time going to all kinds of people for lessons, who probably won't be able to help you anyway. You'll be sent down all kinds of rabbit holes, trying exotic breathing techniques playing different exercises, etc. Forget all of that.

Use the pedal tones as a tool to get your lips to figure it out for themselves. I'm tellin' ya. It works.

If you haven't watched the YouTube video that I recommended in an earlier post, WATCH IT! There's actually a scientific basis to this. Don't be a Trumptard by ignoring science.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignoring science? i studied sport sciences and wrote a book about these principles applied to instrumental practice, and a long time student of Bobby Shew, and (humble) veteran sprinter.

I don't say pedals don't work for some people, and not to practice them, but please don't be so dogmatic and don't call science where no SCIENTIFIC studies prove things about pedals. If already pedals work empirically, it's ok.

Breathing etc are rabbit holes? Ok, so Bobby, Roger Ingram etc. are wasting their own time and their students', and would have made greatest wonders practicing pedals, if we follow you.....

There are many ways to go to Roma, but saying this road is better than that other is a nonsense. Some way can be the best one at one moment for one guy, that's the only thing to say.
If you put your mouthpiece to your nose, you'll never be a trumpet player. But if you're upstreamplayer, or downstream player, practice pedals or not, do this or do that, and you're playing great, it means that what you're doing is the right thing for YOU, even if it's the wrong way for another guy.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And last thing, Martinharris, the OP, didn't answer to my question about what was his problem : just esthetic or functional?
So, in case it's functional (causing range, stamina, accuracy etc. issues), he can do what Mr Hickman or other people suggested (including pedals why not).
And i'll add free buzzing, first with 2 fingers on the lips to help the chop maintaining the seal (like taught by Bobby)
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahem, it's not "esthetic," it's "aesthetic."
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Bulgakov
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
Ahem, it's not "esthetic," it's "aesthetic."


Both forms are considered correct.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
Ahem, it's not "esthetic," it's "aesthetic."


waow ! when one can't argue the content, he attacks the form.
Sorry, my english is the poorest language among the 5 ones that i speak...do you want to use another language if my english sounds to you like Bud Brisbois does?
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulgakov wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
Ahem, it's not "esthetic," it's "aesthetic."


Both forms are considered correct.


Thank you Bulgakov, but no need to keep on, a lot of good suggestions have been given to the OP, that disappeared, and now this conversation is totally useless for the matter, except for ego and dogmas.
Best
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Martinharris
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve done a lot of free buzzing and practicing with a flat chin... but when I try and go into the upper register with a flat chin, it just goes thin, there’s absolutely no cushioned feeling there.... and there seems to be no way to open the sound up in the upper register with a flat chin.
Why am I trying to make my chin flat? Because my trumpet teacher and Chris Labarbera told me to. And from looking at all the great players, it’s clearly the correct way to play. I have so many technical issues, I’m a very limited player technically, and the weird embouchure seems to be the problem.
I’m intrigued by the loud lip bends and the book...
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, I went through the exact same thing you are going through with people telling me to flatten out the chin many years ago. And you seem to be locked into the idea that the flat chin is a must. It's not! I've already cited several great players who bunch their chins.

I also heard people telling me, don't practice pedal tones, they are bad for you. As it turns out, they helped me tremendously.

Many years later, after trying my damndest to play with a flat chin to no avail, I studied with Jerry Callet back in the "Superchops" years when Jerry was encouraging people to bunch their chins. I also bought Jeff Smiley's book, "The Balanced Embouchure" which also advocates bunching the chin for those who can't play with a flat chin and practicing pedal tones. Those two things, studying with Callet and working on my own out of the Smiley book made all the difference in the world for me.

So I'll repeat what I said before: Some people just cannot play with a flat chin. You are apparently one of these people. Don't fight it. You are your own best teacher. Use all of the resources that are available to you. If something doesn't work for you move on. Take what works for you and work hard.

Since your problem is the same one I had, it only makes sense for you to try what worked for me.

Remember, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
Remember, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
Remember, that's not actually a real definition of insanity.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Focusing on what your chin is doing instead of what you sound like and how other aspects of your playing are progressing is ruining your life. Google "paralysis by analysis". Ditch the mirror and focus on the music.

And yes, see the Callet and BE fora here for a different take on chin bunching. Many other teachers simply say to ignore it (bunching or not).


I agree with Don Herman, Song and Wind is the way to go. For the Song part of the pedagogy, we rely on lots of listening and imagining how you want to sound like when playing. For the Wind part of the equation, I like to rely on sensations. Imagine that you have to blow bubbles on a milkshake with a very narrow straw.The higher the note, the thicker the milkshake and a narrower straw. That would take care of your supporting muscles too. That should also take care of your bunching chin.
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's someone who bunches her chin when she plays, but listen to the results she gets. Can't argue with the results.


Link
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flay me within an inch of my life if you wish but my view is that there are enough real problems we need to be focusing on to improve without making up new ones to beat ourselves up with.

I believe that if a teacher tells me I am doing something wrong, I am probably doing it wrong, if I tell myself I am doing something wrong I am probably mistaken.

Stop looking for problems to fix, play music and practice. Be led by the sound and your teacher.
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