Question about terminology on hi notes

Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

I sometimes see people posting about hitting double a's in a music setting. As someone who struggles to use a hi f in music this confuses me. Are people saying they use a double a - to me a above dbl. c - or is this a reality. And to use it musically. ??? I know there are some monsters who can use a dbl in music but dbl. a is damn near triples. Are these people really having this type of range? If I could play a hi as just another note on the page I would die fulfilled. I haven't been around the new kids much in a long time but in my day these things were a figment of imagination. If Neone can point me to music played in this range musically I would love to hear it.
Rod

ghelbig · Last edited by ghelbig on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

kehaulani · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:39 am Post subject:

When talking about like instruments:

Low X, lowest on the instrument.
Middle X, one octave higher.
High X, two octaves above low X.
Double high X, three octaves below.

Higher, if you can play it, you can name it.

.

p.s. "Doubles" don't start on a given pitch, they are related to other tones' placement in relation to that tone.
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

Jon Ruff has a YouTube video on this (can't find it right now). I seem to recall him preferring to avoid the common confusion of nomenclature in the trumpet world by referring to notes as they relate to high C and double high C. I had always "heard" junior high and high school band directors and even college trumpet instructors refer to the G that sits on top of the staff as "High G" (and it may be high to a kid starting out in junior high!). (The F on the fifth line I had heard as top-line F.) That G to me would then be the starting point for the "high" register, and the G above high C would be the first "double high" note ("double high G" or "double G"). The triple register would then officially begin at the G above double high C. There appears to be a big disagreement on all of this, but I think most of us can agree on the nomenclature for two notes:

High C - pretty obvious to all of us, this is the C just above the staff.
-Notes immediately below or above this note can merely be referred to as: the D above high C, the E above high C, the F above high C, the G above high C; the B below high C, the A below high C (or the latter two as the B above the staff and A above the staff).

Double High C - the octave above high C. Again, pretty much accepted in "Trumpet-dom."
-Notes immediately below or above this note can merely be referred to as: the D above double high C, the E above double high C, the F above double high C, the G above double high C (or for some, "Triple G"); the B below double high C, the A below double high C.

I think this is the terminology Jon used, so Jon...calling out to Jon...please post that link to your video...please.

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

There has been a lot of discussion on this topic here on TH. In my experience, whether this interpretation is technically "music theory" accurate or not, when trumpet players speak of "double G" they are typically referring to the 4th ledger line above the staff. By that interpretation "double A" is the 5th space above the staff and "double C" is the 6th space above the staff.

This interpretation follows the format that the lowest pitch of any particular note on the trumpet is the "low" version of that note, one octave above the "low" version is the "middle" version, one octave above the "middle" version is the "high" version and one octave above the "high" version is the "double high" version. By that system the shift to each next higher version begins at F#.

It's my understanding that this interpretation does not match the technical "music theory" interpretation which is based on the piano. Nonetheless, in my experience the above interpretation is the interpretation most commonly used by trumpet players.
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Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:23 am Post subject:

This has been discussed a lot and there are different interpretations, natch.

For me, the way I was originally taught (ca. 1970) was that the lowest (non-pedal) note is F# below the staff, so doubles start indexed from there. The second G over the staff is thus a double G (low G -> G -> high G -> double G). However, I have played plenty of gigs where the ask was for "high G" and that meant the second G over the staff.

It's usually obvious in context...
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VintageFTW · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject:

From my experience the way notes are named are as such:

Double Pedal Notes,
Pedal Notes,
Low F# - Low C,
Db - Middle G,
Middle G - G on top of the staff,
G on top of the staff - "X" above the staff,
"X" above the staff - High C,
High C - High F#,
Double G - Double C,
Double C - Triple/Super G,
Triple/Super G - Triple/Super C
Triple/Super C - "X" above Triple/Super C

While some of the intervals are redundant and uneven, most likely nobody will be confused if one refers to notes this way, given that he/she is a trumpet player.
Of course, the unarguable way to name notes are things such as Low F#, Low C, Middle G, Middle C, High C, Double C, Triple/Super C, ect... referring to everything else as "X" above/below "X" because everybody understands (or at least should) those terms as reference.
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JoseLindE4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791

I can't find the Jon Ruff video either. Hopefully, he'll post it here. It's the most sensible and unambiguous way of naming things. It avoids the entire debate about where doubles and triples start and focuses on communication.

Essentially, it's the following:

-Notes below the staff are called "X below the staff."
-Notes in the staff are called by their place in the staff or just "in the staff." So second line G is "second line G" or "G in the staff."
-The notes just above the staff can be called "above the staff."
- Everything else can be described by their relationship to the different Cs. Whatever is easiest.
- The 1st C above the staff can be called high C as a way-point. So the B just below high C can be called "B below high C." The E above high C would be called "E above high C."
-The 2nd C above the staff can be called double C as a way-point.

The college music theory systems of C1, C2, etc. or C', C'', etc. work fine in academic contexts, but using simple and clear language works best for clear communication. Debates about double G vs. high G is a good waste of time on the internet, but not very useful otherwise.

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283

Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

At least now I wont Gnash my teeth when I hear a 16 year old talk about having trouble with his double A. The best I ever saw in HS or college had a usable 6 ledger line C and he played lead for Kenton later. No one else even came close, some could hit and sustain the note but he was the only one I ever met who could use it in a musical passage. But then I dont know a lot of great players. There is a huge difference in using A above hi c and using A above 6th ledger c which is what I thought people were saying. So I had a double G in hi school (hmmmmm) if I’d known that I could have been a legend in my own mind.
Rod

Craig Swartz · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject:

Low and middle are the ones you can play, high are ones perhaps you can play some of, and double-high are the ones you can't...

Brad361 · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject:

IMO: “double” starts at double C. I would refer to the A just below double C as “A just below double C”😎, or “A two octaves above second space A.”

Just my opinion, but to me using the term “double” for anything below double C is sort of “high school.”

Brad

JoseLindE4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791

I think a good assumption is that most/all references to "doubles" and "highs" are all below double C. So if someone says "double A" I assume they're talking about the A above high C. If they say "high A" I assume the same.

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

dstdenis · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:44 am Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:02 am Post subject:

Like I said earlier, there are two systems, one which involves instruments of varying transpositions simultaneously and two, one within like-instruments. I don't see what's so complicated about this or why it has to be micro-analyzed.

If something doesn't work there's no reason to perpetuate it just because that's what's always been done. But "If it ain't broken, don't fix it".
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TrpPro · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject:

Logic should prevail.

Lowest note = low F#
The next higher F# = middle F#
Next higher = high F#
Next higher (F# above high C) should be called double F#
F# above double C should be triple F#

All other notes follow accordingly.

This is the most reasonable and intuitive naming system.

A case has been made for low F to be below low F# by depressing 123 + 3rd valve tuning slide all the way out. Maybe, but it's not as intuitive.

spyke · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 177

I've only ever been taught that octaves simply begin with C.

(Double Pedal C = an octave below pedal C)

(Pedal C = an octave below low C)

Low C = Below the staff...

High C = ...Above the staff

Double C = an octave above high C.

("Double" C#/Db thru B definitely live here)

Triple C = an octave above double C.

greg warthan · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:20 pm Post subject:

I believe the term "double" is slang. Don't recall a theory text that referred to any note as double, triple, etc. The c to c thing is based on the piano, not trumpet range. A double in baseball is two bases. Double cheeseburger has two patties. Second g would be the double. Had to throw that in. I do like Swartz' reply, though!