Bach 7-10-62 -->25 Bell

[dstpt]

Tomorrow, I'll get a chance to play a 1935 Bach 7-10-62 (Bb) trumpet, so I've done some online research over the past few days and discovered that:

1. The 7-10 refers to a bell that was a blend/combination/hybrid of the #7 and #10 mandrels.

2. Reportedly, this bell was later named the 25 bell.

3. The 62 refers to the .462 (Large) bore size.

Does anyone have a direct source for the 7-10 becoming the 25 bell? All I've found is that this is common fact, but I haven't seen a quote from an original source. Was this something that stemmed from the late Roy Hempley's time looking at shop cards while scanning them or perhaps from his chats with, say, the late Lloyd Fillio or someone of his Conn-Selmer time?

If I hadn't read that this was fact in many instances, I would have guessed the marking to mean:
7 = 7 leadpipe
10 = 10 bell mandrel
62 = .462 (Large) bore

Also, what was the most common leadpipe on that bell. I've mostly seen a No. 6 combined with it. The pictures of the one I'll play tomorrow has no marking on either side of the leadpipe. I did come across one person who claimed to have a No. 7 leadpipe matched with their 7-10-62, btw. I hope to encourage the owner to request the shop card, following Andy Lott’s instructions in his TH thread a few months ago, and with a hopeful response from the factory, even though he officially resigned from C-S in June.
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Trent Austin's YouTube video of his 1936 Bach 25 is indeed marked as a 25 bell that he got from Micah Wilkinson (Prin. Tpt. Pittsburg SO), and the one I’ll play was built in 1935, according to the serial number, so is that when it changed?

One of the best trumpet sounds I have played! 1936 New York Bach Stradivarius ACB show and tell!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Dw6iM9oiI

At 03:42 you can see the shop card…built in Dec. 1935 and sold in Apr. 1936.
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And if that's the case, how do we rectify Jason Harrelson's comment in this 2005 thread?

What does bell numbers mean?
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34930&sid=453b2cbafe9e04d633cd700e55010659

"A friend of mine has the very first 25 bell and 25 leadpipe. The horn is serial #25. It was given to him as a gift from neighbors who knew nothing about trumpets."

Is this where we all claim to be from Missouri (The Show Me State)?!

If that is true, then I recon it would fit right in with the Roy Hempley quote in Ron Berndt’s book on Vincent Bach:
“Just when you think you have it figured out, a horn comes along to prove you wrong.”

I mean, if that serial number was marked as #25, and it was a #25 bell (and #25 leadpipe), would that have meant that Bach was putting a new bell on every horn in those early days? Kind of far-fetched thinking, I know. But that wouldn’t jive with the 7-10 becoming the 25 bell, either. So confusing.

[protrumet.us]

100% true

[dstpt]

[OldSchoolEuph]

There was a set of cornets in the 28-teens serials that are essentially all the same - except two of them are marked 7-10 for the bell and the rest are marked as 25. These were made in July 1935. Before them, there are no 25s. After them, there are no 7-10s.

Serial #25 is far too early to be a 25 with a 25 pipe. The 7 & 10 bells did not even exist yet at that time, and the 25 pipe was a long ways off. The record of that serial number reads "#25 Silverpl. 0 . R ." "Sold" "Jaco" the rest of the word is illegible. The early cards are often like that.

Roy often expressed frustration with the challenges of discovering what Bach originally did, given the obsession so many Bach owners have with modifying horns. Finding an unaltered early example was a very rare occurrence according to Roy - and in my (later) experience, all the more rare.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[AndyLott]

Bach very clearly states in his notes the 25 bell is the 7 & 10 combination. I think that is pretty common knowledge at this point!

#25 is way too early as others have said for a 25 bell. My notes say that the first 25 bell was June 1935 serial #2766.

[dstpt]

[OldSchoolEuph]

There is an anomaly in the production records from 2722 thru 2811 where the serial numbers have duplicate records - with vastly different horns sharing the same number. For that reason, I have been reluctant to draw any conclusions from that data set. Still, it indicates a 7-10 to 25 transition in the summer of 1935.

The overlap is most likely a result of bells being batched, with no requirement to sequentially use them in relation to block serial number. We see this with Mt. Vernon bells and bodies vs Elkhart during the transition there too.

#2845 was complete 7/17/1935, so in the tail end of this transition. You will be playing a horn with a 0.018" stock bell that I assume to be yellow brass, though it appears there was no indication of alloy. The original pipe was a 6.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[dstpt]

[tptptp]

Wouldn't Mr. Bach be pleased to know that, even after all these years, we're still discussing his specs and records, and playing his creations?!!
_________________
Craig Mitchell

[OldSchoolEuph]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[dstpt]