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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: Why would two examples of the same model play differently? |
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Presumably using the same set of specs, same mandrels, same lathes etc., same techniques and measuring tools, made out of stock that's been inspected. I assume the techs who make them are hired based on demonstrated skill and knowledge, surely their work must be subject to QC inspection.
Particularly in the case of "big name" makers how would there be enough variation between two instruments that make it out the door for it to be noticeable in the way they play? Or with boutique makers whose whole pitch is obsessive attention to detail, impeccable craftmanship, supposed superior insight into the physics and special sauce black magic, dedication to their craft, yada yada, to justify the boutique price tag. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I was surprised to learn that even Yamahas, with their reputation for consistent manufacture, can play a differently even when the same model. My guess is no two horns are assembled exactly the same. And remember that on some makes of horn, changing which valve cap is on the end of which valve, can make a horn respond differently, so it doesn't take much for a sensitive player to feel a difference. Also how tight the spit valves are screwed can make a difference. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, for starters:
* variation in tubing and bell thickness
* bell annealing variations
* differences in the "gap"
* valve alignment
* stress in assembly
* different placement of braces
* variations in assembly, gaps in tubing
* spit valve tightness (as already stated)
* differences in curves of the bell bow, tuning slide
* solder blobs, leaks, other assembly problems
* weight of valves and valve caps
There are probably other things I haven't thought of or don't know about. It just isn't possible to make two identical horns. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:09 am Post subject: |
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"Stack of tolerances"
Essentially, everything can be within spec and the overall result still be noticeably different.
Valve alignment is probably the easiest place to see this in action - every part could be within spec and yet the alignment be imperfect... Say, for example, you've got a felt that's the thinnest it's allowed to be, valve stem that's as thin vertically as it's allowed to be (where the felt sits), barrel that's as short as it's allowed to be and valve ports drilled the highest they're allowed to be... Individually these tolerances might look very tight indeed, but if you stack up a bunch that are all at one extreme of it, they'll stack up as if one part were noticeably out of spec.
Add up lots of these things - gap, slight bore irregularities, solder blobs, slight variances in profile.... It all adds up to noticeable but acceptable differences |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Every specification on the horn, from alignment of valves and tubing, to metallurgy of the brass, thickness of the bell and tubing, variation in solder joints, gap, tubing bend and roundness, and more, has variation and, therefore, a specification tolerance, since NONE of these things are the same, ever. The way the various variables add up affects how the final product performs, even when the specs are all within acceptable tolerances.
A good example is cars. You can line up 5 cars of the same model, optioned identically, painted the same color. They will all drive slightly different. One may be very reliable and another may be a maintenance nightmare. One may rust sooner than the rest, even exposed to identical environments. No two cars are alike.
No two supposedly identical products of any type are ever absolutely identical. Some companies just do a better job of controlling the variables than others.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7011 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:53 am Post subject: |
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There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical, nor do any two behave identically during manufacture. Therefore, no two parts are identical.
All else aside, I bet this one truth accounts for the lion's share of the differences we feel and hear. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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The way the pieces are put together really matters.
A few years ago, I played around with customizing an Ambassador. Taught myself how to solder (poorly). I can testify that taking a part of it apart and putting it back together, without changing any of the parts, had a huge impact on how it played. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9014 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Arguments like this are for the engineering minded. No harm done. Have fun.
But the real thing is that horns have always been different from each other, just accept it. Human variance. And for the musician, the how is not so important as simply the end result - which plays best for you. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical. | No, that's not the "only thing" ...
jadickson wrote: | The way the pieces are put together really matters. | ... because that's another thing. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3634 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I call it the "X factor." It can't be measured or seen necessarily, but it is very real. And yes, every brand has variations in the way they play from horn to horn of the same model.
The two examples from my experience that stand out:
Back in the late 70's I worked in Larry Souza's repair shop and he sold Benge trumpets. A very fine player was coming in to try horns and we had ten CG Benges lined up on the bench. Two of them were marvelous and a couple weren't so good, and the rest ranged between those extremes.
I had an opportunity a couple of years ago to try maybe ten YTR-8335LA Bergeron models. Same thing, two of them were incredible instruments, a couple weren't so good, and the rest were in between.
Unfortunately, it's become almost impossible to have the luxury of this kind of selection, most surviving music stores simply can't afford to stock a lot of horns. Those were the days.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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One pencil feels and operates the same as another of the same specification, one screwdriver feels and operates the same as another of the same batch.
The simpler the product the more alike the examples are. The more complex the more variance there can be.
An assembly is the culmination of all its parts and manufacturing variance leads to characteristics that can add together and lead the entire assembly to depart from expected behavior. Some departure is good and leads to better performance some is bad and leads to poor performance.
The creation of a motor vehicle is shared between design engineers and assembly workers, the creation of a house is shared between architect and builder, the creation of a musical instrument is shared between the designer and the builder.
Friday cars exist, even friday houses exist. Friday instruments exist.
A designer can optimise the performance of the instrument by great design so that it could be wonderful, and poor assembly can turn any of those instruments into mush. |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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One way to circumvent some of the problem of buying a horn without the luxury of trying many versions of the same model is to buy a horn that is tweaked during final assembly the manufacturer who is also a very good player. For example they test the right position of the braces and even find the best bell etc. I am thinking Scodwell, Trent Austin does final tweaks on some of his own brand, Harrelson, there are others. Alternatively, buy a horn and send it to an after market tweaker. |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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There is a giant stack of places where there could be variations on small scales. Lots of things matter. In my experience, more things seem to matter on C trumpet than on Bb. (Or at least the players who are serious pro C trumpet players seem to be more sensitive [or care more] than Bb players...)
One thing that you can easily experiment with...
Try clocking your mouthpiece. Note the rotational position of your mouthpiece. Play a simple one octave F major scale. Note the sound and playing characteristics. Turn it 1/4 turn. Play the scale again. Lather, rinse, repeat for the 4 cardinal positions. Sometimes there is a huge difference between positions, sometimes not. Usually positions 180 degrees apart are similar. There is however, generally one spot that plays best.
This clocking works with tuning bits in flugelhorns and piccolo trumpets and with things like Reeves Sleeves. The maddening thing relevant to this discussion is that if you unsolder and clock the lead pipe of a Bb or C trumpet, huge variations in playing characteristics present themselves... |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | . .......The maddening thing relevant to this discussion is that if you unsolder and clock the lead pipe of a Bb or C trumpet, huge variations in playing characteristics present themselves... |
This is one of Steve "Dr. Valve" Winans' major tweaks. |
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TrumpetMadness Regular Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2012 Posts: 36
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | JoeLoeffler wrote: | . .......The maddening thing relevant to this discussion is that if you unsolder and clock the lead pipe of a Bb or C trumpet, huge variations in playing characteristics present themselves... |
This is one of Steve "Dr. Valve" Winans' major tweaks. |
Funny you say that because Joe works at Doctor Valve's shop. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that varies the most is where the lead pipe is cut on the mandrel. When the pipe is drawn it is too long. It needs to be trimmed on both ends. You can’t measure the inside of the pipe where you plan to cut. It is usually cut a little too small so one of the final steps in assembly is when the tester “sets the Venturi”. The small end of the pipe is opened up to spec which is something like .346 usually but can be between 330 (connstellation) and 368 (selmer b700, CG Benge etc). If the pipe has to be opened .003 that means that the whole pipe is .003 out of spec all the way down the pipe (too small) and it will play tighter. And .003 is not that far off for cutting a pipe. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7011 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical. | No, that's not the "only thing" ...
jadickson wrote: | The way the pieces are put together really matters. | ... because that's another thing. |
You might want to read what I wrote more carefully. There is this little word "first" that will put it in proper perspective. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | mm55 wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical. | No, that's not the "only thing" ...
jadickson wrote: | The way the pieces are put together really matters. | ... because that's another thing. |
You might want to read what I wrote more carefully. There is this little word "first" that will put it in proper perspective. |
Even if we take that perspective into account mm55’s point is spot on.
There are many things that need to be understood up front. For instance whether the craftsman is consistent and having a good day when they produced the part. Whether or not the brass is identical makes no difference if the craftsman isn’t consistent. |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:44 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | mm55 wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical. | No, that's not the "only thing" ...
jadickson wrote: | The way the pieces are put together really matters. | ... because that's another thing. |
You might want to read what I wrote more carefully. There is this little word "first" that will put it in proper perspective. |
No, that "one thing" does not have to be understood "first". There is no such prerequisite. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Last edited by mm55 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7011 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | mm55 wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | There is only one thing that has to be understood first in order to account for differences in "identical" instruments: No two pieces of brass are identical. | No, that's not the "only thing" ...
jadickson wrote: | The way the pieces are put together really matters. | ... because that's another thing. |
You might want to read what I wrote more carefully. There is this little word "first" that will put it in proper perspective. |
No, that "one thing" does not have to be understood "first. There is no such prerequisite. |
Come on. In taking account of the many things that cause differences in "identical" instruments, the first thing in the chain is differences in the raw materials. This causes every piece a manufacturer makes to differ from the others. This alone is capable of making sufficient differences that no two will behave exactly the same.
This is why Tony Scodwell hand-picks the parts he puts together for each and every trumpet he builds. Some parts work together and others don't. It's also why some mouthpieces work magically, no matter the horn or player (to a point), or why some Reeves sleeves play better than others, regardless of the gap they form. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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