Horn safari....

[Johnathan Barnett]

I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant but here it goes.....

I play trumpet, guitar, and keys. Obviously keyboard's have so many different sounds it's crazy. If I want piano or organ or synth or Rhodes or Yamaha CP-80 I can push a button and get it. If I want to mimic a certain guitar player, in theory I tried to match or get close to their equipment. If I choose an acoustic I look at the wood: rosewood, mahogany, etc and body size: jumbo dreadnought, concert, etc. If I play electric I choose solid or hollow body, single coils or hummbuckers, pedal effects etc. I do all of this to achieve a certain sound.

I grew up listening to and wanting to sound like Doc. Whether it was Doc and the Tonight Show Band or Doc and The Cincinnati Pops Orchestra. The sound I have in my mind that I want to achieve is Doc's sound. I know there are other mechanical and anatomical factors in production of sound on a brass instrument: teeth, lips, tongue, etc but if I want to sound like Doc should I be on a horn safari for a horn/mouthpiece combo like Doc? Should I look for a NY Bach style horn with a #6 leadpipe and a lightweight 37 bell? Should I look at the Getzen Severinsen? Should I try and find a Bel Canto (which I think is what he used on those Tonight Show recordings)? Maybe a Scodwell? Should I check out Bob Reeves mouthpieces with similar specs in cup depth and backbore but more adaptable to my rim size?

Let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance for your input.
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Johnathan Barnett
Yamaha YTR-736
Yamaha Japan 12, 13A4a
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"Don't look down on anyone unless you are helping them up." --- Jesse Owens

[LittleRusty]

I don’t have the answer, but you left Doc’s latest foray into designing his own horn, the Destino.

[plp]

Heck, as Doc can't decide on what gear works, how can anyone else?

The key lies in the woodshed, take whatever gear you have and just work it out in practice.

If you want to sound like Doc, listen to a lot of his recordings, and internalize that sound. And listen some more, and play along, and pay particular attention to his articulation, what I have found is the key to the Doc sound. His attacks are so forceful, not blatty or necessarily loud, but make a statement, that tells everyone sit up and pay attention, some good stuff is forthcoming.

Then he delivers, one of the best examples that come to mind is his flugel solo on 'Spanish Dreams', actually comes in very quietly, then builds throughout until he is just wailing over the span of 3 octaves.
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Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth

[Jerry]

[pinstriper]

I rather suspect that the equipment that allowed Doc to sound like Doc will not necessarily be the same as what you would need to sound like Doc. If that were even within your ability at some point.
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'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued

[John Mohan]

Doc has a big, bright, commercial sound. To achieve a similar sound, you would be best off with a horn that tends to create a big, bright, commercial sound.

Getzen Eterna (obviously)
Shewhorn
Benge CG
Selmer CG
Yamaha Bergeron model
Benge 3X MLP
etc.

Then of course, you need to study with a great teacher and practice about 6 to 8 hours a day for ten years or so. Then, presto!

Cheers,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[Rod Haney]

Don’t mean to be a smarta## but I think to sound like Doc you gotta play like Doc. Ive been around pro players who could make almost any instrument sound like they wanted it to within reason. I would define what it is about his playing in particular you want and decide if it was due to the type of horn he played or the way he plays. Or pick up any of the horns he has played and compare your sound to his. Anything lacking is you or just a bad horn try a few. Bet you find that most of what you want isn’t in the brass. Guitars and keyboards are not nearly as dependent on the meat playing the tone as the trumpet. I recently bought what I think is the best trumpet ever made and I’m thrilled with it. But it’s also a bit sobering to know that anything I dont like coming out the end from now on can only be me. My horn safari ended, and now I have to concentrate on the real problem, my play issues. But if you do go after horns, remember ‘buy cheap, sell dear’ haha if you can.
If you dont have my issues and want a horn similar to Docs I would look for the sound he gets Vs. the brand. To me his sound is clear and brilliant and plays very slightly on top of pitch. There are many horns that have this character and you should try to match your blow with the horn to get the sound you want. Ive seen in my own experience how often the horn sounds different for you than others. I had a lot of good experience at ITG and other local trumpet fests and that was my experience. I played a HJ King silver bell and I can tell you that in no way did I get a Harry James sound, look around at all equipment including Docs and Ill bet you get as close as possible to his sound.
Rod

[Johnathan Barnett]

Great thoughts from everyone....thanks for the responses!
_________________
Johnathan Barnett
Yamaha YTR-736
Yamaha Japan 12, 13A4a
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"Don't look down on anyone unless you are helping them up." --- Jesse Owens

[Ed Kennedy]

[roynj]

[Robert P]

I think Doc's unique sound comes from a combination of the physical tools he was born with, his neuromuscular feedback loop and his personality and musical sensibilities.

I've long surmised that Doc is working with different tools than everyone else. Something about the way his chops respond, the resonance within his body, his digital dexterity in his younger days. Listening to "Chimes Festival" - I don't think there's anyone else who's ever picked up the instrument who could duplicate that performance. I believe that's true with a lot of things he's done.

To a large extent Doc has a very strident approach to playing. Yet even when he's playing in a subdued way his sound is still very "Doc". I'd say listen to how he approaches notes and see what you can gleen. I think it would be a formidable task to try and match his overall playing.
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[DaveH]

[Robert P]

[Ed Kennedy]

[blbaumgarn]

At 67 I have listened to Docs sound for quite a time and no matter what ax he plays it seems to produce that sound. There's a youtube vid of him playing after his 90th birthday and if you close your eyes it is still Doc. So, what people say about his embouchure and other physical characteristics. His most recent horn, the Destino is supposed to be something special. But, the vintage Getzens are still out there. I played a Severinson Getzen for about three weeks in '71 and loved it. It was a different sound than the Conn 36b I had, but good. The Conn was a bigger sound though. You can imitate anyone but you will have a sound of your own; a trumpet sound based on your embouchure, etc. and that is good too.

[LittleRusty]

Check out these older threads. Based on what people who worked with or knew Doc say he had a bathtub full of mouthpieces he used at one time or another.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1209423

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125205

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140629

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1258667

[Robert P]

[Brad361]

I saw Doc live in ‘75, again about 7 years ago then again three years later. I’m guessing the first time he was using his Getzen, the last two times Shires. The last two times I was also close enough to see him making mouthpiece changes, including dropping one (guess it happens to all of us)!

Different venues, different horns and different decades, but always that bright, full, resonant sound. Doc is Doc, I believe, and even though he is reputed to be a bit of an equipment freak, I doubt his sound has much to do with what he’s using.

Brad

[trickg]

I'm going to throw a comment in from out of left field - take it for what it's worth.

I once attended a clinic where the clinician, a drummer by the name of Jerome Deupree, gave a demonstration that was specifically addressing the irrelevance of equipment on a person's sound. This was at a drum clinic I attended as part of a much larger event in Manchester, NH - many of the clinicians were Boston area players and performers, and many of those clinicians had an association with Berklee College of Music.

He asked for 5 volunteers from the crowd, and once up on stage, he had them each play a minute or so of the basic "Back in Black" drum groove using his kit with his sticks:

8th note hats
Kick drum on 1 & 3
Snare on 2 & 4

Everyone was playing the same thing on the same equipment, but everyone sounded completely different. After they'd each played, he sent 3 of the 5 back to the audience and had the remaining two do it again - they were the two who had the biggest difference in their approach to the instrument.

The point he was trying to illustrate was that equipment is only a small part of what comprises our sound. He said that it's good to look up to fine players, and to look for takeaways from their playing, but that we're better off if we focus on our own craft and getting comfortable with our own sounds. He said that we'll never sound like anyone else because we aren't them, and that trying to sound like someone else is pretty much impossible.

Doc sounds like he does because he's Doc. He might play gear that helps to facilitate his sound, but he's going to sound like that whether he's playing a Getzen with one of his many Bob Reeves mouthpieces, or a Bach Strad with a Bach 1.5C.
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[RandyTX]

To the above, I'd add that even the very best trumpet players have radically different sound from each other in the same live venue, and *none* of them sound like Doc.

I saw the Cancer Blows event in Dallas in 2015 and again this year (though Doc had minor lip injury this time and only acted as an MC rather than playing).

In 2015, despite hearing at least a couple dozen of the most famous names in the business play along with him, and being in his late 80s, I still thought he made the hall ring in a way that none of the rest of them came close to.

Sure, they were all fantastic players, and sounded very good, many of whom had more strength than he does at this stage in his career, but everybody in the audience was talking about Doc's sound, and standing in line afterward for his autograph.

Oh, btw, he changed mouthpieces at least a dozen times or so during his part of the show, and sounded fantastic on all of them.
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