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Clear out of the blue? Starting to blow a little flat.



 
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Clear out of the blue? Starting to blow a little flat. Reply with quote

Not sure when it started happening. Although I have noticed in the recent past month or two that I'm pushing the tuning slide in more. In order to get the note to match A-440. However I had just attributed this occurrence to a cooler room. That and my need to spend more time warming up.

Then last night prior to an amateur concert band performance I noticed that even after my warm up and a practice run through that my tuning slide needed pushing in. Because I was still blowing 2 to 3 cents below pitch.

Typically my tuning slide is pulled pretty far out. Around an inch at ambient room temp. Maybe 1 & 1/4 inch out in warmer rooms. The only time I'm at "normal" seems to be at outdoor gigs where the air is cooler. I see that most trumpet players blow with their tuning slide out a half inch. Seems close to average.

It was only when I went on the road some 40+ years ago when my bandmates heard me play that I realized that I needed to pull out more. In fact I would describe that period of my life aa one of the worst. I didnt like to play out of tune. Further it was disturbing to need to make such a severe correction. Although the situation was tempered by the fact that I also needed to pull the tuning slide way out on my slide trombone too. I doubled a lot back then. And our lead trombonist also pulled his tuning slide out pretty far. So I concluded that my 1 inch to 1 & 1/4 inch slide correction on the trumpet was just a minor anomaly. Maybe it was due in part to all the high notes I played. I thought that perhaps guys who blew lots of high notes and used shallower mouthpieces needed to pull their pitch down more. And for the next forty years I could count on recordings of mine sounding at leasr decently in tune to my own ears.

Then this recent trend started. I wasnt horrified to hear the playback of last night's recording but I wasn't happy either. Ive always considered the low side of the pitch to be the "amateur" side. Also have noticed that classical trumpet players kinda trend toward the low side. While jazz and commercial cats blow on the higher side.

My problem today is twofold,

A. I gotta start pushing the slide in to between 1/2 inch to 3/4's. And,

B. Start hearing a higher form of the pitch. Then be sure not to pull the pitch down. ie "stop lipping the tone down" to match what I want to hear.

A is easy. B takes practice. Darn! As everything had been working so nicely before. I had reviewed dozens of live performances of mine over many years and never heard any tuning problems. At least none of significance. It is also possible that I'm exaggerating the matter slightly. As amateur groups can have lots of small intonation problems.

As an example, I noticed that when I'm in a more professional band my sightreading ability increases. Probably because they have a better drum and rhythm section. Similarly I notice fewer tuning difficulties.

However the current situation, while minor is troubling. Perhaps a reason why I'm blowing slightly flat today is because Ive been conditioning my chops with the pencil exercise for a long time. That and increased the load on such isometric exercises substantially over a considerable length of time. One benefit to this is that I dont struggle so much chop-wise. My lips are in fine shape if I may say so. They feel nice and loose but strong. In turn however this more relaxed state brought about by stronger chops could be throwing the pitch lower.

Kinda like the man who practices weight lifting until he can press 300 lbs over his head. Being so well conditioned a hundred pound weight now feels lighter than ever. Im thinking that by having a better conditioned embouchure may have led to my over-all pitch dropping.

Anyway? If anyone can shed some light on this matter? I would be interested. I usually dont solicit help here on the forum. But today I do. First time for eveything....
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing more relaxed is a good thing. Playing with the tuning slides further in is a good thing. (If you're in tune that is, obviously)

Go with it!

This may shift a bit from time to time. As you mentioned, what we hear in our head, and what we concentrate on, are huge variables in this equation, meaning it has a lot of influence. I'm reminded of this when I play a horn that slots loosely and I need to correct my pitch to tune, lol. I can blow the thing at the same pitch, almost no matter what I do to the tuning slide ...
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Playing more relaxed is a good thing. Playing with the tuning slides further in is a good thing. (If you're in tune that is, obviously)

Go with it!

This may shift a bit from time to time. As you mentioned, what we hear in our head, and what we concentrate on, are huge variables in this equation, meaning it has a lot of influence. I'm reminded of this when I play a horn that slots loosely and I need to correct my pitch to tune, lol. I can blow the thing at the same pitch, almost no matter what I do to the tuning slide ...


Your post reminds me of an effort I made to record some Jazz duetz. I pulled them directly from "Bob Martin's" Jazz Duets book for Trumpet. Its probably still in print. Because its from the "Berklee Press" series.

So I recorded the second trumpet line on a medium deep cup mouthpiece and the lead line on a shallow but not really shallow mouthpiece. On the play back of both parts together however the lead line sounded sharp.

Well since as mentioned above I used to pull out pretty far compared to other cats? I pulled the tuning slide out to about 1 & a 1/4. Inch. Now even by my former standards that's a lot. Then re-recorded the piece. Result? Still sharp. Damn!

So I re-record the lead line a third time (this is starting to make me kinda mad now) using my same shallow but not super shallow mouthpiece. Only now I'm out 1 & 1/2 inches with the tuning slide. This is starting to look ridiculous. But? Still sharp on the playback!!!

Now I'm mad. And I pull out a roll of that black electric tape. Because now Ive decided to record the lead line with the tuning slide so far out that it needed to be taped. In order keep the slide from falling out onto the floor.

Now at this point? I should theoretically be in the key of A. But how did my playing sound? A few tones were weird. Poor sound quality but the rest still sounded sharp!!! Still sharp even though the length of my trumpet should be puttinng it into the key of A.

Coda: At this point I started suspecting something electronic. I decided to blow the whole first trumpet part through my same medium deep classical mouthpiece. Same one I used on the 2nd Trumpet part. Only this time I left the tuning slude alone. Set in a normal position.

Everything came out fine. Apparently the tape recorder was sucking all the high end harmonics out of my trumpet. But only when I used the screamer/shallower piece.

Just as an FYI,
On some early copies of "Live At Jimmy's" by Maynard Ferguson and his big band the cat playing lead trumpet in the section sounds kinda sharp. Well the lead player on the album is none other than the great player Lin Biviano. I decided to go see Maynard"s band later that year of 1974 and inquire what was up with the tuning isses. Jeez I was such a critic back in those days! Except that Biviano had left and moved on to start his own big band. The new guy replacing him on lead trumpet was Stan Mark. He took over and stayed almost ten years on the band.

Stan is and was a huge fan of Lin's playing. He told me that the consensus on the band was that "Live At Jimmys" was recorded (obviously) live and that after an especially long road tour and a grueling two week schedule of playing.
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a sec... You didn't happen to do that gig on your new mouthpiece, did you? What might have happened is that since everything has become easier for you with that design you could be relaxing more, and as such using slightly less air pressure, thus causing you to be flat.
Basically: Everything becomes easier suddenly = less effort = (possibly) less air = more relaxed in general = playing flat
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clean your horn?
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for the responses.


trickg wrote:
Clean your horn?


Been there, done that. But thanx 4 the eye-deer.

Also I agree with FTW. Think I mentioned something similar to his words. As by having stronger chops this would mean that they should be more relaxed. Able to pull the load more easily. Perhaps before I got used yo doing those isometrics? I was pulling the pitch up.

No, i didnt use my new lead piece on this job save and except for one fairly high but short length part in the encore number and I
probably didnt even need to use it there either. I mostly put that piece in the horn as an emergency precaution. Was worried about running out of gas on a series of high C"s in "A Christmas Festival". It's not a strenuous piece for me overall but at the end of a long blow it sure is. Lol.. Otherwise I used conventional mouthpieces. Or at least what I would call conventional pieces.

We have a fine amateur band but I gotta carry the whole 1st Tpt part alone and it tends to test my stamina but more in the classical music style.

And afterwards we listened to portions of the concert my G/F had recorded and this was when I noticed that my pitched was hanging a hair lower than normal. Which bothered the Hell out of me. But I will fix it.

First I'm just gonna asertain where correct A (440!) is. Then tune a hair higher. Maybe to 441 or 442. Like the BSO or Boston Pops does. And simply force myself to blow higher in pitch. It is more ear which is disturbing me now. Not my chops. I think for some reason, msybe because of my age (62) I'm just not hearing the proper pitch right now. It sounds good when I'm
playing. That and it stays very consistent ie doesnt waiver in pitch. A good sign in general. However on the playback it disturbs me a little. Sounds a hair flat.

But other than my ears? No other complaints. In fact the music director pulled me aside during intermission and asked me if next year/semester I wanted to be "the featured soloist". Flattered, i though long and hard about it. At least a couple nano-seconds and said "yes"! Hope I didnt bite off mo player.l than I can chew. As Im not a classical trumpet.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be a good thing. Playing relaxed with good air support and a non-manipulative relaxed embouchure can result in a bigger fuller sound. Also a flatter pitch!

Grueling playing, over blowing, tired muscles, nervousness, too much pressure, too much manipulation can all lead to sharpness.

Do not ask me how I know this!!!

Merry Christmas,

Gordon Stump
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed recently that I have to bring my tuning slide in a little farther to play in tune. I attribute this to cooler temps in my practice room at home and rehearsal rooms (our jazz band rehearses in a room cool enough that most of us keep our jackets on!).

Thomas Moore, a physics professor and former science editor for the ITG Journal, wrote an article for the ITG Journal in March 2001, The Effect of Temperature on Pitch. He explained that sound travels slower through colder air, which means it takes longer for the pressure waves to reach the bell, which means the frequencies of vibration are lower, which makes us flat, which means we have to pull in the tuning slide a bit to compensate.

Humidity also matters. Moore wrote that sound travels faster in humid air, slower in drier air. So if the air in the room is both colder and drier, it has an even bigger impact on pitch.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After listening to my g/f's sound recording of last Friday's gig I'm no longer sweating any tuning issues. In fact i just set the tuning slide once before and after the first chart and then only once just after intermission.

No flatness! Everything stayed virtually locked in the whole job!. It was just a matter of believing my own ears, and making the simple adjustmemt. .'
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