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Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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 Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: Thoughts on the angular motion of the horn while playing |
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I had intended to post this note in the column marked "Pivot". However for some reason beyond my knowledge the forum software is only allowing me to post this as an entirely new subject. If the forum moderators can move my post back to the described topic? This would be much more preferrable for me. Thank you in advance...
To the best of my knowledge I have never read or heard the quite simple reason why most all of us "pivot" while ascending and descending. Nor the equally 6thsimple explanation of why some pivot the horn down while ascending. That and why a few turn the horn more upwards while ascending. The exact opposite in direction as the majority of us.
The very explanation for this angular motion is that in order to position our embouchure best to both raise the pitch and give the higher tone power we usually move our jaw one direction or another.
If you pull your jaw inwards (usually coinciding with the lower lip curl in). And if additional air pressure from the lungs is added at the same time? The combination of jaw moving in, some rolling in of the lower lip (which in turn pulls the inner sides of the upper lip back) should result in a little bit of angular motion of the horn in a downwards direction while the pitch of the horn is ascending.
However a minority of brass players actually push their jaw out while ascending. More rare than those who pull their jaw down these cats find the upper register easier to blow if they actually push their jaw out. Resulting in an upward angular motion.
Both movements are almost "no-brainer" type conditions.not exactly worthy of intense study. I have even seen one or two brass players employ multiple pivots. Like they pivot downward until ascending to high G. A damned high note. Then they suddenly "shift" and start a reverse movement. Often then ascending to well above Double C. These people are unusual but seem to also not get any of the heavy stress many of us find while playing high notes.
Also take note to a word of caution. When Donald Reinhardt wrote his work "The Encyclopedia Of The Pivot System" he was not referring to this described motion at all. In the interest of time I will not explain what I do think that he meant. As I do not declare myself an advocate for Reinhardt's approach. Although I have received some value from the book here and there.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Lionel,
I do my very best to move nothing at all that is not inside my mouthpiece or controlling those fine muscles. I find this works best for me and gives me more control in my range to B1 to hi G. What is the advantage to movement? When I see guys like Nakarov and Hakenberger play they have almost no perceptible movement. These guys have great range and phenomenal control and great beauty in their sound (even if they play classical). What advantages are there to moving more than need be? Is it really a necessity to go to the c7 range? Seems I’m starting to get the knack using some John Daniel exercises without movement. What’s your take, youre a hi note guy?
Rod |
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Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | Lionel,
I do my very best to move nothing at all that is not inside my mouthpiece or controlling those fine muscles. I find this works best for me and gives me more control in my range to B1 to hi G. What is the advantage to movement? When I see guys like Nakarov and Hakenberger play they have almost no perceptible movement. These guys have great range and phenomenal control and great beauty in their sound (even if they play classical). What advantages are there to moving more than need be? Is it really a necessity to go to the c7 range? Seems I’m starting to get the knack using some John Daniel exercises without movement. What’s your take, youre a hi note guy?
Rod |
Im kind of a "high note guy". Hopefully improving. At the rate things are going? I may become a damned good screamer by age 75. Wow! Then the girls will all go crazy wont they?
I jest but its just kinda taken me longer to get the hang of it than some cats do. And of course many trumpets just accept their range limitation and continue developing their music. They don't spend a veritable lifetime (sorta like I have) of working out all the inner limitations. ie custom making mouthpieces, study of everything written by Reinhardt, Stevens, Maggio etc etc ad nauseum.
And what's interesting to me is that a good number of these range limited trumpets tend to have at least a slightly better overall technque than I do. I'm not a bad player. But my technical skills up to say high C are probably not much better than good. Whereas the range limited type pros tend to iron out all their other kinks (besides range). They're crack readers whereas I'm just adequate. And perhaps some of this reason is
A. They only have 2 & 1/2 octaves to maintain. And,
B. They're less prone to burning their chops out. Because they're not always testing their range limits seeking comstant improvement.
What is also curious to me about that crowd who tend to top out at high D is that they tend to play the last note of their range pretty well. In other words they will tag that high D very nice, loud and square on pitch.
Me? About the highest note I will put on the bandstand is around a B flat to B natural just below double C. But if you saw me do it? There's no way you would describe me as making it look easy.
As far as the rest of your questions go? And they are good questions... Naturally if a trumpet player can meet all of his range needs without any angular motion of the horn? Sure! Do it. I have merely proposed that the angular pivot while ascending which is usually a downward horn movement is due to the jaw receding. That and very likely a "roll-in" of the lower lip. I further postulated that when the lower lip rolls or curls in it is dragging a portion of the upper lip (both left and right sides of the upper lip!) back inside the mouth. And that this light pulling back is helping to raise the pitch.
Granted there are trumpet players who dont pivot their horn angle much. And still others who move it the very opposite direction.
My estimate is that those with little horn angle movement are changing register through other means than a roll in or roll out. Maybe they're just firming up their mouth corners and slightly closing their teeth. And that those who pivot their horn upwards when ascending are throwing their jaw out. But I also think that this movement is if not rare just less common.
In one of his Youtube videos Maynard spoke of a lead player who he hired back during his London band days. This was his MF Horn and MF Horn 2 recordings. And that lead player was the lttle known but fantaatic John Donnelly. A diminuitive but pudgy character but with the loudest double C's ever.
And according Maynard, Donnelly had that uncommon upward pivot to the upper register. And I also have it on good authority, from no less than the late Al Cass (who supplied all the mouthpieces except for Maynard's to the brass section on MF Horn 2) that indeed John Donnelly had the nastiest loud LOUD double C "on the face of this earth". Quote from Al who really liked John Donnelly.
Donnelly's son is still alive. I dont know him except for some internet posts once long time ago. And also according to the son his dad could split eardrums with his powerful upper register.
I think I'm sort of standing at a of my own playing. There's a new mouthpiece I carved out on my lathe not even two weeks ago. I cut it even shallower than the one I was so pleased with fro May of 2017. Anyway the newer piece is another 10% shallower than the 5/17 piece. With a conical, almost "V"cup base to the cup and almost no inner rim "bite" at all. Oddly enough it is getting a fairly full tone in the middle register. And as I slowly condition myself onto playing it the double C area is getting scary louder but better still? I'm not knocking myself out hitting these notes. Previously I had been asking myself the wrong question! I would wonder,
" Fer Christ sakes I hit a high G big as a house why cant I play the A through DHC decently"?
But after taking a short course in Critical Thinking Found that this wasnt the right question. Forget about the range problem. I should have been concerned of the extreme back pressure I was sustaining while blowing high notes. THAT was my problem. Maybe I'll get into the solution later. On another post.. Sorry for the extra lonh post. Wasnt my intent to write so much. Not at first..
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Lionel I’ve only been playing for 2 yrs. now after a 47 yr layoff. Knew I couldn’t blow the way I did then due to some health issues (bp). Also had pressure induced range above hi e at that time. Had talent but no work ethic.
Health problems caused early retirement, then surgery cleared problem and got bored and seriously started back on the horn. Good work ethic these days 3-5 hours on horn a day improving skills. But trying different stuff to stay away from excessive anything. Not knowing anything but to put it to my mouth and play I’ve run down a lot of alleys due to opinions and suggestions on the TH trying to get good methods and tips from those who know a lot more than me. I never gave up the one ideal I had when I started back tho which is to do everything easily and without extreme effort. For 2 years no matter what I tried I always tried for still and relaxed. Between Jim Manley and some John Daniel exercises I think I’m starting to get a knack for this range thang. And it isn’t one thing for me, it just seems I’m stumbling into a lot of good habits stacked together and have stumbled onto a method which seems to be working. Manley mentioned some stuff Maynard told him about the lower lip up and out, and Daniels with his ow-eye-ow exercises and some other stuff about movement inside the map and the fine control muscles, and the breath control, and support and all just seem to be getting there. I actually hit 2 loud and clear dbl c’s today for the 1st time. Not in music, just slurring up - my very 1st.
I’m finding that some who have said it’s just a knack are probably right, but it seems to be a knack built on top of a lot of correct practices. It took me learning about the lip and the fine control in the mp to get this feeling but I wouldn’t have found it if I hadn’t followed the good advice of many from different playing systems. I really feel a usable (like in music) dbl c will be here by June, I can hit it now, hopefully control it by June. I don’t feel any of these improvements would have been possible without a stable playing platform.
On mp’s, I started using a mp with almost no bite, a .640 width, and a MF grail cup and its magic. Tone bigger everywhere, very fast, 25 drill, I love the slightest bite I can find, sounds like u too.
rod |
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Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | Lionel I’ve only been playing for 2 yrs. now after a 47 yr layoff. Knew I couldn’t blow the way I did then due to some health issues (bp). Also had pressure induced range above hi e at that time. Had talent but no work ethic.
Health problems caused early retirement, then surgery cleared problem and got bored and seriously started back on the horn. Good work ethic these days 3-5 hours on horn a day improving skills. But trying different stuff to stay away from excessive anything. Not knowing anything but to put it to my mouth and play I’ve run down a lot of alleys due to opinions and suggestions on the TH trying to get good methods and tips from those who know a lot more than me. I never gave up the one ideal I had when I started back tho which is to do everything easily and without extreme effort. For 2 years no matter what I tried I always tried for still and relaxed. Between Jim Manley and some John Daniel exercises I think I’m starting to get a knack for this range thang. And it isn’t one thing for me, it just seems I’m stumbling into a lot of good habits stacked together and have stumbled onto a method which seems to be working. Manley mentioned some stuff Maynard told him about the lower lip up and out, and Daniels with his ow-eye-ow exercises and some other stuff about movement inside the map and the fine control muscles, and the breath control, and support and all just seem to be getting there. I actually hit 2 loud and clear dbl c’s today for the 1st time. Not in music, just slurring up - my very 1st.
I’m finding that some who have said it’s just a knack are probably right, but it seems to be a knack built on top of a lot of correct practices. It took me learning about the lip and the fine control in the mp to get this feeling but I wouldn’t have found it if I hadn’t followed the good advice of many from different playing systems. I really feel a usable (like in music) dbl c will be here by June, I can hit it now, hopefully control it by June. I don’t feel any of these improvements would have been possible without a stable playing platform.
On mp’s, I started using a mp with almost no bite, a .640 width, and a MF grail cup and its magic. Tone bigger everywhere, very fast, 25 drill, I love the slightest bite I can find, sounds like u too.
rod |
Yeah its just common sense. Use a more rounded inner rim "bite"? More endurance, less stress and circulation loss. Less chance to cut the lips.
Sharper bite? Tendency to gouge and cut the lips. Plus it is a two sided ax: The sharper rim not only cuts more but since upper register playing is more likely to bring out the arm pressure? A sharp inner rim edge compounds the problem many times over.
I'm not taking a side on the "no-pressure" vs the "use as much pressure as you want" debate. Instead am just pointing out reality. People are simply going to use more arm pressure against the lip ehen they blow louder high notes. He who can practice/play longer hours without hurting himself is going to develop the upper register more quickly. Its a total no-brainer and I'm only a fellow of average intellect. Least ways I hope so. But my words seem to be to only ones indicating the obvious here. Which is also kinda disturbing. I feel like this is an obvious matter and more folks oughta pick up on it.
To compound the general problem even more I see a long held, historical tendency to recommend deep cups with large inner rim dimensions. Now the trumpet player struggles even harder to blow into the upper register. Because the larger mouthpiece cups require more strength to offset their inferior leverage to the upper register. Now compound that with sharp rims?
Its not just a recipe for disaster. Not just that. Its a widespread catastrophe. Because the mouthpiece I just described illustrates in a general way the very same mouthpiece made for beginners for the past 137 years or so. No wonder we have so many range challenged kids playing (and often quiting) the trumpet...
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I’m just saying what worked for me and frankly thats all any of us should worry about. Like the mp did, I just tried something and kept it because it worked. I haven’t been afraid to try things and discard them if they didn’t work. I still take some specific lessons on jazz improv, but I’ve never set down and had someone try to take me thru a specific method “say Claude Gordon” that I’ve agreed with enough to adopt in total, I pick up what I think I need and go somewhere else for the rest. A lot of methods I’ve seen seem to be very specific about how things should be done, yet I’ve always found there is more than 1 way to skin a cat, and ill always go for the no strain relaxed way. I’m not dependent on playing for food, that gives me a lot of room to experiment and take some time to see what works best for me on the
No strain plain. If you can change the air in the mp with your emb. Isn’t that better than moving the horn, which is a big muscle thing? No argument as I don’t know enough to argue, it just seems easier.
Rod |
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