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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 931 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:13 pm Post subject: King Super 20 owners |
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Hi all,
I have a late model King Super 20 KMI era trumpet en route. It appears to be in good condition.It has a worn lacquer finish. If I was to have it replated to look like the earlier models what would that be? Online photos that I have found are usually the King Super 20 Symphony. It looks as if the bell and leadpipe are sterling silver but is the reat of the instrument gold plated or is it gold lacquered? For those of you in the know could you please enlighten me?
Thanks so much. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:37 am Post subject: |
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There were two options for the super 20 on bells. You could get a brass bell or a solid sterling bell for the silversonic models. They are solid silver and not plated. Thats why you see the bell silver and the body lacquered. If refinishing the horn and you just need to get it relcqured not silver plated to be original. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:16 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | There were two options for the super 20 on bells. You could get a brass bell or a solid sterling bell for the silversonic models. They are solid silver and not plated. Thats why you see the bell silver and the body lacquered. If refinishing the horn and you just need to get it relcqured not silver plated to be original. |
My King Super 20 Symphony DB is (was..) lacquered in toto. Bell seems to be in one with the rest, not put on afterwards (or, if so an extremely fine piece of work - the bell of my new Bach clearly is added).
Lacquer is rather worn, beneath the lacquer pure yellow brass (that can be polished).
It was made 1970 (here is a reference: http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial%20Numbers.htm ) _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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amuk Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 148
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: |
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My 1963 Silversonic Symphony DB Super 20 is the same--that is, solid silver bell with clear lacquer on the outside of the bell with "gold wash" on the inside of the bell. The leadpipe is solid sterling with clear lacquer, as well.
The rest of the horn is gold lacquer. Holding up surprisingly well despite the age. |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 931 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all so much. I started out on an Olds Ambassador. My mum decided that I should have my own trumpet instead of a school horn. A King Liberty was my first trumpet and I eagerly read the rest of the catalog with lust for one of those sterling silver jobs. Closest meaning most fiscally obtainable is a Super 20 in lacquer. I can't wait till it arrives. |
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Goldplate Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 152
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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I used to have a Super 20, but sold it many years ago. I wish I still had it. It was silverplated, but I did not buy it new. If it had been refinished, I couldn't tell. |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:29 am Post subject: |
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I had two Super-20 DB's.
DO NOT have the Sterling Silver bell re-lacquered. Have at the rest of the horn, if you wish. _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 931 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the heads up about relacquering the Sterling bell. The trumpet is an S2 model with brass befell and leadpipe and no DB. That will remain a grail horn. I was able to find this one within my financial grasp. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I have owned three: my Dad's original 1048 from @ 1953 (stolen) a KMI lacquered from early '70's when in school, and now a mid-70's.
Please post a picture. In the meantime: does the main tuning slide have a single plain vertical brace (the .458-.468 dual bore Symphony model), or does it have the knurled double-vertical brace? (1047 .448 bore S1 and the 1048 .458 bore S2)?
At the end of the KMI era, everything was about using up parts and all over the place. My late KMI horn is definitely a Super 20 1048, silver plated, (NOT the sterling bell), but has Silver Flair pinky ring and bell braces, even with the double-vertical tuning slide.
I believe in later years, the solid sterling bell was only offered on the Symphony models as an option; another option was the sterling silver lead pipe. A horn could be ordered with either or both. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
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iiipopes wrote: | I have owned three: my Dad's original 1048 from @ 1953 (stolen) a KMI lacquered from early '70's when in school, and now a mid-70's.
Please post a picture. In the meantime: does the main tuning slide have a single plain vertical brace (the .458-.468 dual bore Symphony model), or does it have the knurled double-vertical brace? (1047 .448 bore S1 and the 1048 .458 bore S2)?
At the end of the KMI era, everything was about using up parts and all over the place. My late KMI horn is definitely a Super 20 1048, silver plated, (NOT the sterling bell), but has Silver Flair pinky ring and bell braces, even with the double-vertical tuning slide.
I believe in later years, the solid sterling bell was only offered on the Symphony models as an option; another option was the sterling silver lead pipe. A horn could be ordered with either or both. |
Now that you mention it: my King Super 20 has that sterling silver lead pipe.
Owned 47 years and the valves still are in extremely good shape.
Really a super horn. Never played any horn that well balanced in all registers; so easy to play in tune per se.
Why did I buy a new Bach? At my age a bit more suited for lead work (=brighter maybe requiring a trifle less air). _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Bell seems to be in one with the rest, not put on afterwards (or, if so an extremely fine piece of work - the bell of my new Bach clearly is added). |
May I ask what you mean by this? I am unaware of any bells that are formed with the valve block, so you must mean something else by "put on afterwards".
Just curious. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:14 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Bell seems to be in one with the rest, not put on afterwards (or, if so an extremely fine piece of work - the bell of my new Bach clearly is added). |
May I ask what you mean by this? I am unaware of any bells that are formed with the valve block, so you must mean something else by "put on afterwards".
Just curious. |
English not being my native tounge maybe I express myself a bit obscurely.
Looking at my King I can detect no signs of the bell being fitted to the pipe coming from the valve block.per se; now that you say so I can understand that somehow the bell is fitted to this pipe? Or?
The Bach, on the other hand, shows, although very subtle, small signs of the soldering (??) process, approximatively 200 mm from the bell.
Perhaps still vague, but the best I can provide _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Bell seems to be in one with the rest, not put on afterwards (or, if so an extremely fine piece of work - the bell of my new Bach clearly is added). |
That is the superlative quality of the craftsmen who assembled your trumpet. The bell is not only soldered in just like with all other trumpets, but the sterling silver has a different melting point than regular brass, and so has to have the craftsman touch to solder the bell on properly. The sterling bell was considered the flagship of the line, and the workers did everything they could to make the horns look perfect in every way. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Bell seems to be in one with the rest, not put on afterwards (or, if so an extremely fine piece of work - the bell of my new Bach clearly is added). |
May I ask what you mean by this? I am unaware of any bells that are formed with the valve block, so you must mean something else by "put on afterwards".
Just curious. |
English not being my native tounge maybe I express myself a bit obscurely.
Looking at my King I can detect no signs of the bell being fitted to the pipe coming from the valve block.per se; now that you say so I can understand that somehow the bell is fitted to this pipe? Or?
The Bach, on the other hand, shows, although very subtle, small signs of the soldering (??) process, approximatively 200 mm from the bell.
Perhaps still vague, but the best I can provide |
I understand. As iipopes states in the above reply I believe this is just good craftsmanship, not creating the valve block and bell together.
I have seen videos of craftsmen building a valve block and even the valve blocks are made of pieces soldered together. If you look at the tubes going between the valves or to the crooks they normally don't show the solder/brazing seams. They appear to be one piece. |
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B_Starry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2002 Posts: 903 Location: Lake Norman
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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A bit off-topic, but I noticed a username in this thread I have not seen in awhile: Robert Rowe!
Good to see you back, Robert. Your insights and comments have been missed.
Brian _________________ do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 931 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Canada Post is searching for my trumpet. It is somewhere in the system and they are tracking it. The trumpet based on the serial # is a later KMI S2 mode with the double knurled brace. |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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B_Starry wrote: | A bit off-topic, but I noticed a username in this thread I have not seen in awhile: Robert Rowe!
Good to see you back, Robert. Your insights and comments have been missed.
Brian |
Bless you, Brian ... for the kind comment.
Your posts have been very informative, as well.
Have always enjoyed reading ....
You and I ... (as well as Uberopa) go back quite a few years ... do we not?
I was actually a member of TH about 1 1/2 years earlier than my now listed, 18 Apr 2004 date of membership .... That was at the time of the dreaded "Great TH Crash" when many, many posts were lost forever, for the members involved. I believe (?) I had posted almost 2000 posts. Forever lost. Those of us affected had to re-apply for membership as new members.
Keep tootin' !!
~ r2 ~ _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 931 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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The lost has been found! The delivery service had left it beside my back door and it was covered in snow. The snow bank at the door melted enough during the past few days to reveal the package.
The horn came with a Benge like case instead of the old faux alligator ones. The instrument itself has a few cosmetic dings that should rub out easily. The valves are clean with no staining, the slides pull with a champagne cork like pop. There is no corrosion in the lead pipe or in any of the rest of the horn.
So how does it play? So easy to get a sweet phat sound with an ACB 3C mouthpiece. The scale is good with the low C feeling unsettled as if the valve alignment isn't quite on.
Nice valves a bit clacky but nimble. Comparing the sound to a modern trumpet is a bit challenging. Compact core like a 37 bell but with more brightness to the edge of the sound would be the closest I can think of. I am open to other impressions though. It will definitely get some restoration love for my community band. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: General question about King Super 20 trumpets |
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I saw in some 1960s advertising material that the 1048/S2 Super 20 was "designed for accuracy in the medium and high register". With my 1048 model, the low G and F# do seem a little different, but completely usable - is that really a property of that model? As far as I can tell, all notes above that seem to have good sound quality, and response.
My 1048/S2 has a .458 bore, 2 piece brass bell, double braces on the tuning slide, and very stout braces in other locations. I use a recent production Bach 7 mpc.
Do the Super 20 horns have a deserved reputation for being more suitable for some type of playing, compared to 'general purpose' use? Most of my use is in amateur 'concert band' - no commercial or serious lead playing.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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