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My 1 week long playing collapses


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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Post subject: My 1 week long playing collapses Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
So my question is: how bad can be "overplaying one's lips" ?
I'm thinking about the scene in the original Ghost Busters when Dan Ackroid warns about not letting the streams cross. "Bad".

SaxoTrump wrote:
Can it disable a trumpet player for a month, for instance?
Or cause a 1 week long playing collapse?


What I see you describing is a situation where you play too loud/high/long and don't realize it until later. Nothing feels different, you just have recalcitrant chops.

It happens to me - I described it to my teacher(s) as "it's like the wheels just fell off". Other than the usual 'long tones' and 'back off for a while' I haven't gotten any advice that works.

One thing I have noticed is that while I'm developing "the knack" I'm also building embouchure strength. And while I'm building strength the muscles change size. And when the muscles change size the embouchure changes. And when my embouchure changes I have to adjust "the knack". Ad Infinitum.

Gary.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first thing I would try is to practice the same routine at the same time every day for a month. If you don't have a collapse, then go another month.
The routine would be your warm-up followed by any technical studies that you do. Always with resting as much as you play. You can mix up the music part of it, but stick with the same exercises always in the same order. Try to play at the same times of the day, every day.

Eb
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
I have one more question so please someone address it.

Here locally there is a term that can be translated into English as "having overplayed one's lips". I only once heard it in person from a professional player who serviced my trumpet.
From his warning "never overplay your lips" I remember that he was talking of some severe but not fatal condition that can make one unable to play well for some time. I haven't asked him then how bad it could be.

Since trumpet playing is a universal thing I suppose "to overplay one's lips" must be a familiar term (even if not exactly in this wording) to any trumpet player regardless of their nationality.

So my question is: how bad can be "overplaying one's lips" ?
Can it disable a trumpet player for a month, for instance?
I don't mean complete inability to play but reducing the playing abilities to a significantly lower level?

One important thing: I assume no damage in the form od torn lips or anything like that. No, visually normal lips, no swelling, no tears and lips feeling as they should unless it comes to trumpet playing where they display no efficiency and strength.


The concept Over-use syndrom was concieved. by Lucinda Lewis, a french horn player who has thought a lot about this condition. Put in simple words this condition is the result of having over- taxed one’ s lips to the point making them un- responsive. LL is a bit controversial in the “horn community” from what I’ve gathered but it is indisputable that one can reach a state of fatigue where more of the same is just detrimental. Happened to me couple of years ago when I suddenly got ample time to practice and so I did with the result that I shortly thereafter barely could produce a tiny common C in the staff. The cure was not resting but rebuilding the “chops-set”.
Lips are muscles,tissues, and as such could be over trained, “stretched” beyond necessary limits. Too much wear, lactid acid, small invisible bleedings, you name it, as in all other muscles. Lips essentially being muscles obvously makes warming up/down extremely important. Straining muscles not being ready is absolutely not to be recommended. Ask every top athlete...
I’ve found that it is deceptively easy to end up having over - trained/usec one’s chops. You gotta develop a keen feel of the state of your chops so as to be able to “diagnose” them on a continual basis. Too much pressure resulting in a growing unresponsiveness often is met by even more pressure, hoping to “squeeze” out the remaining parts of a chart - et voila there you are, bruising your lips.
So carefully monitoring your “chops-state is mandatory. My condition initially made me rather upset, or “down -set”, I thought my playing had reached the far end.... And this happened after almost 50 years of rather successful playing, on an amateur basis. In my case deep down a not really functional embouchure.....in spite of my earlier lead playing, solocornetist status.
The solution was having my way of playing scrutinized by a pro so as to make possible an updated ”re installation” of the embouchure.
So perhaps you should consult a teacher..
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for your latest answers, my friends!
There is some tasty food for thought in them.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An allergy to something? Too much salt? Too little sleep/rest? Not enough water? Too much caffeine/energy drinks? Anxiety about something?

It only takes a slight amount of swelling or tension to mess up your playing. A month is a long time for something like this to last, though, so I'd guess it's a slight amount of lip swelling caused by something.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
An allergy to something? Too much salt? Too little sleep/rest? Not enough water? Too much caffeine/energy drinks? Anxiety about something?

It only takes a slight amount of swelling or tension to mess up your playing. A month is a long time for something like this to last, though, so I'd guess it's a slight amount of lip swelling caused by something.


- allergy: I don't think so. I'm not allergic as far as I know.
- salt: Normally I don't change its amount, it's stable.
- too little sleep/rest; Just before my "lips collapse" I had 3 weeks of unstable sleep/rest.
- water is OK.
- No energy drinks at all. I don't drink coffee.
- anxiety: Just before my "lips collapse" I had 2 months of anxiety with 3 weeks of unstable sleep/rest at the peak of that anxiety (as indicated above).

So far this condition has already lasted for 3 weeks.
I don't experience lips swelling as far as I can tell.
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mileage
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Saxotrump,
I was reading your posts and responses with interest.
I’ve been a professional player for 26 years and I have suffered with, if not the same thing as you, then certainly something very similar.
When it first started happening with me I panicked and tried to get over it by doing entirely the wrong things. Trying to get out of a hole by digging!
Long story short, it happened because I was doing something wrong which caused it. I wasn’t aware that I was doing anything wrong, I followed the same routine/warm-up as usual. All I knew was my lips were ceasing up and becoming totally unresponsive until I had a working range of a fifth (if I could get a note out at all). All I could do was not play and wait for it to recover, which would take a week or two.
I’m the end I eventually figured out the cause, and it’s nothing very complicated or surprising. It’s tension. I was getting tense which was creeping into my playing. I was over preparing every time I played a note until my production became unnatural and strained. Holding my breath before tonguing, locking up. It all resulted in me destroying my chops on a regular basis.
I now work on basics everyday. Keeping everything as simple and natural as I can. I use a metronome to help me keep my production clean and to synchronise my breath and tongue. I watch people who play very naturally and effortlessly so that I have a mental image in my mind and I listen to players whose sound inspires me. In a nutshell I try and reinforce goods habits everyday and be aware of any tension, because once it starts it’s a downhill slide. Hope that helps, if only so that you don’t feel like the only one!
All the best,
Miles
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Miles for sharing your experience and your thoughts. It's definitely something to think about as nobody watches me except myself and I definitely can overlook when tension creeps in.
When I'm back to normal condition for the new round of 'good playing' I'll try to watch carefully all the aspects of my playing including tension.
Maybe I should start a trumpet diary so that when the next 'lips collapse' happens I'll have a better idea what might cause it and work out a strategy to minimize its effect yet for the next one to come (I'm sure I can't avoid them altogether: it would be an unexpected miracle.)

mileage wrote:
Hi Saxotrump,
I was reading your posts and responses with interest.
I’ve been a professional player for 26 years and I have suffered with, if not the same thing as you, then certainly something very similar.
... It’s tension. I was getting tense which was creeping into my playing. I was over preparing every time I played a note until my production became unnatural and strained. ...
All the best,
Miles
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Magnus935
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: more than anyone wants to hear about badly f'd up chops Reply with quote

You've heard of guys playing too much one night and ruining their chops forever? That's what I did about 31 years ago. I went from being the strongest player in town to one of the weakest overnight. We've all had those times when the sound is fuzzy for a few days but then it works itself out after a bit of rest. This time it didn't go away. Range, endurance, sound quality, flexibility........gone, gone, gone and gone. I was informed that I'd done nerve damage. I tried everything and only ended up creating bad habits to compensate. Anything to get that sound back! Nevertheless, my love of music and the trumpet kept me beating my head against the wall for about 23 years, aquitted myself fairly well and got work but still only a shadow of what I'd lost.

Finally, I couldn't keep my gigs. More practice only made it worse. So I quit and sold my horns.

After about 8 years off for me, my young son decided to play trumpet. I tried everything to get him to do something else, even bought him a saxophone. Nope. It was going to be trumpet. (Little **** has a natural Wynton embrochure!) So I picked it back up to show him some basics and, very much to my surprise, the chops seemed to be working. After that I put in a bit of roadwork, some focused and PATIENT practice. It was like learning to walk again, but I can play the Brandeburg again. My sound is back!

Moral of the story- Take a bit of time off, certainly not 8 years, but take some time. Put in the roadwork we all need to do and when you're too tired, REST! Listen to your body. Remember, don't push too hard and balance your practice- high/low, fast/slow and loud/soft. It will come back and you'll be fine.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: more than anyone wants to hear about badly f'd up chops Reply with quote

Magnus - what a great story! A sad and cheerful at the same time considering the happy ending.
To be honets I never heard of it before, I mean about guys ruining their chops over night. Are these stories common among trumpet players? Or are they only a rare case?

Anyway, I'm glad you got back! I understand how careful you must be now about your "reborn" trumpet playing.

Magnus935 wrote:
You've heard of guys playing too much one night and ruining their chops forever? That's what I did about 31 years ago. I went from being the strongest player in town to one of the weakest overnight.
...So I picked it back up to show him some basics and, very much to my surprise, the chops seemed to be working. After that I put in a bit of roadwork, some focused and PATIENT practice. It was like learning to walk again, but I can play the Brandeburg again. My sound is back!
...
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Magnus935
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, when I was coming up, I heard a lot of guys talk about the risk of pushing too far and losing it, but I am the person I've ever known who actually did it. It was a boneheaded screaming high note contest after a 3 hour lead gig. The chops had a weird tingling for a couple months after (nerve damage) and never worked again until taking the time off an refocusing on the basics.

One interesting coincidence from another TH thread- This Dave Belknap daily Schlossberg routine, I think doing #14-#35 every day. I found that post over the weekend and almost fell over. As fate would have it, that is EXACTLY the routine I laid out for myself to rebuild my chops from ground zero! Fantastic routine, boring but it works. Creates a solid foundation to do the rest of the work we need to put in all over the horn. It's on TH now, I think under "the best advice I ever got", something like that.

Cheers![/img]
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