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Flugel on a budget


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Padmavani
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Posts: 10
Location: Devon, England

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
I would go middle-of-the-road, not too big, not too small. Something equivalent to a Bach 3CFL, 5CFL, or 7CFL. For Denis Wick, I think that would be a 3 or 4. For Yamaha, I think that would be an 11F4, 13F4, or 14F4. For Curry, that would be a 3FL, 5FL, or 7FL.

Mike

Thanks, that's just the sort of advice I needed.
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
TKSop wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Jon Arnold wrote:
I will second the vote for the GR FD mouthpiece. I have one and the intonation is spot on and works great if I want to tap into my inner Chet.

What flugel do you recommend he purchase with his remaining 20£?


Not sure what the point would be in spending £180 on a mouthpiece to make your trumpet sound more like a flugel... and then spending £20 on an actual flugel?

Hence my question. While the OP has now purchased the flugel, she originally wanted to get both a flugel and mouthpiece for £200.


Hang on there's a disconnect here somewhere...

Brian suggested a mouthpiece for Trumpet that might negate (for some) the need for a flugelhorn at all (I'm not endorsing or opposing this view) - his suggestion pre-supposed that the OP owns a trumpet already, but the suggestion was to get a trumpet-flugel type mouthpiece instead of actually getting a flugel.
The original post in this quote-string endorsed that suggestion - of a trumpet mouthpiece, not a flugel mouthpiece.

Why anyone would want to buy a trumpet mouthpiece to make their trumpet sound more flugelly and then buy a flugel anyway (much less a £20 flugel), I'm not quite sure...
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:


Hang on there's a disconnect here somewhere...

Brian suggested a mouthpiece for Trumpet that might negate (for some) the need for a flugelhorn at all (I'm not endorsing or opposing this view) - his suggestion pre-supposed that the OP owns a trumpet already, but the suggestion was to get a trumpet-flugel type mouthpiece instead of actually getting a flugel.
The original post in this quote-string endorsed that suggestion - of a trumpet mouthpiece, not a flugel mouthpiece.

Why anyone would want to buy a trumpet mouthpiece to make their trumpet sound more flugelly and then buy a flugel anyway (much less a £20 flugel), I'm not quite sure...

I read Brian's post as a response to Padmavani's request for a mouthpiece to go with the flugelhorn she would be purchasing. Interpreted your way the recommendation makes more sense price wise, doesn't it?
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Padmavani
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Posts: 10
Location: Devon, England

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you can all laugh quietly to yourselves now - I received the plastic flugel today and it's dreadful, so I'm returning it, and will save up for a real one!

It's shoddy, it buzzes slightly, it's way more out of tune with itself than most flugels normally are (even I as an almost beginner can tell the difference between an octave and what this does for the pedal note, and so on), and there are no rings on the tuning slides to even attempt to compensate for this. The tuning thing is a dealbreaker for me, I have strong relative pitch and can't stand this (and it's not just how I'm playing it - I didn't have this issue with my old Jupiter flugel in the 80s, for example).

Serves me right for being in a hurry, but now I'll have time to find an instrument that'll last me for a while, and will be resealable if I want to upgrade at some point. I still appreciated the advice on mouthpieces.
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TrumpetMD
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the update. Best of luck finding the right horn.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the disappointment. Good luck finding a good instrument.
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trumpet.trader
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Joined: 02 Jul 2017
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’ve made a good choice to wait and save up for a better horn.

Best bet is to save up and find a nice used Yamaha or Kanstul. Some people will tell you that some of the Chinese horns are good alternatives. I am not one of those people.

If you buy a Yamaha or Kanstul everything will work, parts are readily available, it will play in tune, and will have resale value. A Chinese no name horn is a gamble.

Getzen is also a nice option and I’ve seen them at very reasonable prices in used markets. But you’d do better with a smaller bore Kanstul or Yamaha in my experience.

Good luck, and be patient and save up for a horn you’ll be happy with and want to keep for a long time.
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Padmavani
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Posts: 10
Location: Devon, England

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today in “Reasons not to buy instruments from these people” I bring you the suppliers’ reply to my question “Please tell me which mouthpiece the PlayLite flugelhorn shank takes: large taper, small taper, or French?”

Here’s their helpful reply:

“thank you for your email. We are sorry for the delay in responding to your email. We can now confirm that the Playlite Flugelhorn will work with a metal flugel mouthpiece.

Again, please accept our apologies for the delay you have experienced.

If you have any further queries please don't hesitate to contact us.”

I blow my nose in their hair.
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GuidoCorona
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Joined: 29 May 2014
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Location: Summerville, SC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For completion's sake, some manufacturers, E.g. Carolbrass, offer many of their instruments with left-handed configurations for a small up-charge. See for example the Carolbrass left-handed flugel:


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.598701093503650.1073741826.144551498918614&type=3

I realize that this is not an inexpensive flugel, but it is worth keeping these kinds of custom left-handed options in mind for the longer run.


Regards, G.
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Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played my flugel left handed last night, and apart from me being inept the ergonomics were actually very good
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iiipopes
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Joined: 29 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now for something completely different:

I found my Couesnon here on the forum for @$750 including shipping. I found a contemporary mouthpiece on Craigslist from a mother who bought her son a trumpet, came with several mouthpieces, but "one didn't fit," for $35 shipped. So I have less than $800 in a set up that will last me the rest of my life. With the matching mouthpiece, I pull the third valve slide about a half-inch, and have superlative intonation across the board, including above top-of-the-staff g, which is the Achilles' heel of most flugel/mouthpiece combinations.

I have found that flugels do best with the mouthpieces of the same brand:
Couesnon
Yamaha
Bach
Courtois
etc.

The common problem for mix-and-match horns and mouthpieces is the tendency of the upper register to go flat or lose center of intonation. This us usually due to too deep a mouthpiece, too large a bore, a backbore that does not match the leadpipe of the flugel, or a combination of all the above.

Laskey makes a mouthpiece which he says will not go flat in the upper register. After trying all the usual suspects of horn/mouthpiece combinations, that might be something to consider.

Since trumpet is the primary instrument, and flugel the secondary (unless you are in a north European "fanfare orchestra" [their version of a concert band that uses flugels instead of cornets or trumpets]), consider a mouthpiece that has the same or similar rim to the player's main trumpet mouthpiece, and is not too deep, to help with transition.

Finally, remember that a flugel is an entirely different instrument, which just so happens to play the same pitch. With the difference in bore and taper, it requires a completely different approach to breath support to sustain the signature tone of a flugel. So instead of machinating too much on equipment, focus on the difference in fundamentals and breath support, which will do more to get the proper tone and intonation than any hardware will do.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
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Padmavani
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Posts: 10
Location: Devon, England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've taken an alternative route now that I hadn't considered, and I'm hiring an instrument, a John Packer JP175. My first six months' rent (only £16/month, which includes insurance) can be set against any instrument I decide to buy off them (including the one I've hired), so I can save up for something better if we get on well together.

The instrument takes a large shank mouthpiece, and I've found a cheap used Wick 3FL (I have a big mouth!) to add to the mix.

This instrument should do me very well as a beginner, and gives me time to try it out before laying out loads of money. I've even found a local teacher. The instrument arrives tomorrow. Here we go...

Incidentally, someone said they'd not heard Bach on a flugelhorn, so here's some of my inspiration:


Link
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to TH! I've had a chance to play that model recently, and found it surprisingly good. Not a Scodwell but the price difference is vast. I also like the Wick FL mpcs., so I bet you'll be able to forget all about equipment and just focus on playing the thing. FL is such a fun instrument!

Your well developed relative pitch will serve you quite well. Your sense of humour will be necessary to survive this bunch, which you seem quite adept at.
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Padmavani
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
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Location: Devon, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Side note: the Sshhmute doesn't fit the JP175, the bell flare is too big for it, so I'm going to have to score some extra cork to glue on top of the existing cork. I've just received the instrument, very happy with it so far, though it'll be a bit easier once my better mouthpiece arrives, I think (not that I'm expecting to be making great sounds right away, of course...). It's a nuisance not being able to use the mute right now, as I'm more self-conscious about neighbours hearing me practise without it.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padmavani wrote:
It's a nuisance not being able to use the mute right now, as I'm more self-conscious about neighbours hearing me practise without it.


I wouldn't worry too much about it - as long as you're practicing at sociable hours, most neighbours are absolutely fine with it.

Practicing with the mute is quieter sure, but it's not as conducive to progress - if you want to be able to play and perform, you need to be able to practice without it most of the time.
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Edward4
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Joined: 29 Apr 2017
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently use an Allora Flugelhorn. It certainly is a cheaper one (300-500 USD depending where you buy it). The tone is honestly incredible, and just what I was looking for when starting flugel. I DO plan to buy a professional model by the time I get to college, but for now, this works perfectly in what I need to use it for.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward4 wrote:
I currently use an Allora Flugelhorn. It certainly is a cheaper one (300-500 USD depending where you buy it). The tone is honestly incredible, and just what I was looking for when starting flugel. I DO plan to buy a professional model by the time I get to college, but for now, this works perfectly in what I need to use it for.

I think the Allora line of student horns are all very good. I've not tried their flugel, but I've tried some of their other horns and saxes. For the money, they were all pretty good horns.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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