Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:22 am Post subject: Flugel Throws
Is there much difference in the valve throws (the distance that the valve needs to be depressed) between different makes of flugelhorns?
I know that to sound as smooth as Clark Terry or Roy Hargrove on their fast scales the major factors are practice and ability. However, short throws can't hurt.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
CT's old Selmer flug had super short throw valves. The Olds not as much... Roy's Inderbinen has typical throw valves. The only two modern flugels I have seen in the shop with short throws like the Selmer are both bottom sprung (the Jupiter 1646 and the newer Adams F5).
That being said I think it's more the indian than the Arrow.
The bottom-sprung valves on the Kanstul 1025 and Wild Thing flugelhorn are also very short throw, compared to the top-sprung valves on other flugelhorn I have tried. They are also extremely fast since they do not carry the weight of a spring barrel. The only caveat to this is that some valve sets may need some break in time before they are completely up to their potential. I've had three of these individual horns. Two of them had one valve each that was a little tight for a time, then one day loosened up and were as fast as the others. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Last edited by shofarguy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:24 am Post subject:
Quote:
That being said I think it's more the indian than the Arrow.
Amen.
Also, thanks, Trent, for the info.
I'm no Clark Terrry or Roy Hargrove (or Trent Austin), but I am more fluid on my Bach 37 than I am on my B&S flugelhorn. It seems to me that the valve throw on the Bach is a bit shorter than on the flugelhorn. I was just curious about the difference between flugelhorn models.
I haven't had an opportunity to play very many different flugelhorns. I've demo'd a Carol Brass and a Couesnon; my B&S is a better fit for me. But, I'd like to find a flugel that feels in the hand (mostly valves, I mean) more like my Bach trumpet.
Hmmm, I may need to make the trek up to Trent's shop.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:08 am Post subject:
The Scodwell Flugelhorn is another modern design with bottom-sprung short-stroke pistons. It also has an innovative combination of tunable lower branch and leadpipe for greater flexibility in tweaking the intonation across the range of the horn. Check out the video for an explanation of how that works and why one would want that. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:01 am Post subject:
Maybe Trent should send me one of those Phorns and I'll show what a .458 Win Mag or .375 H&H will do at 50 yards. I doubt it'll be as spectacular as a solid hit with a ball bat, though. Neat!
The bottom-sprung valves on the Kanstul 1025 and Wild Thing flugelhorn are also very short throw, compared to the top-sprung valves on other flugelhorn I have tried. They are also extremely fast since they do not carry the weight of a spring barrel. The only caveat to this is that some valve sets may need some break in time before they are completely up to their potential. I've had three of these individual horns. Two of them had one valve each that was a little tight for a time, then one day loosened up and were as fast as the others.
I'll echo Brian's opinion on this. Despite already owning a ZKF-1525, when I heard Flip play his flugelhorn in his garage, I was very impressed by the horn's agility. Sound-wise, it was a lot closer to the 1525 than I had expected, but those valves just invite work on rapid passages. I've had the WT flugelhorn for several years now, and am still impressed by its cornet-like ability to handle the quick stuff. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:27 am Post subject:
Grits Burgh wrote:
But, I'd like to find a flugel that feels in the hand (mostly valves, I mean) more like my Bach trumpet.
Warm regards,
Grits
Hi Grits
In this regard, the Bach 183 flugel comes to mind. Personally I'm very fond of my Bach 183 flugel, despite it not appearing to be particularly popular amongst Trumpet Herald posters.
I play mine with a standard Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece, and have received many compliments about my flugel horn sound and approach. I know that an ideal flugel sound is very personal and we all add our own inherent sound to the mix, but in my opinion the Bach 183 has a nice flugel sound, plays well and has valves like your Bach trumpet.
If you have never tried one, I believe that it is worth adding to your list of flugels to try.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:15 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If you have never tried one, I believe that it is worth adding to your list of flugels to try.
Lou,
Thanks.
You make a very good point: instruments are very personal things. You cannot let the opinions of others sway you. I know what I am looking for and without trying a Bach, I'll never know if that is the right horn for me. I very much like the sound of the B&S; I don't think that I could possibly sound better on another instrument. However, I would like the feel and responsiveness to be more like my Bach trumpet. It might be that a little thing like changing the concave valve buttons to flat might be all that it takes to adjust the feel.
...it could also be that I just need to practice on the horn more.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject:
I know this is horn-related discussion forum ... so, all posts and related comments are relative.
BUT ... where are we going with this ?
Is in really important to be able to play (super)-fast ?
Like ... is anyone concerned they will not manage Rimsky-Korsakov's "Flight Of The Bumblebee" properly ?
Did Raphael or Harry lose sleep because their horns' valves weren't up to the task?
Geezers on this forum probably have some arthritis setting in, anyhow. _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject:
Robert Rowe wrote:
I know this is horn-related discussion forum ... so, all posts and related comments are relative.
BUT ... where are we going with this ?
Is in really important to be able to play (super)-fast ?
Like ... is anyone concerned they will not manage Rimsky-Korsakov's "Flight Of The Bumblebee" properly ?
:roll
Maybe for the band version of Colas Breugnon Overture (Kabalesky)
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Is in really important to be able to play (super)-fast ?
It is not just fast, but smooth. I leave it to you, listen to the runs by Roy Hargrove (at 3:12) and ask yourself, wouldn't it be nice to play just like that?
Speaking for myself, this is why I practice for hours daily. It is why I am taking lessons.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
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I doubt it'll be as spectacular as a solid hit with a ball bat, though. Neat!
