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Flugel: 3 Valve vs. 4 Valve


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Darth Trumpetus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Flugel: 3 Valve vs. 4 Valve Reply with quote

I'm in the market for a flugelhorn and am trying to determine if a 4 valve is worth the extra $. I really like the idea of the extra range but am more concerned with a traditional flugelhorn sound. Not using it for jazz - need something that provides a color contrast to the trumpet sound. Have lots of experience with cornets, pics, and Eb's - just very little with flugelhorns.

Appreciate any suggestions/feedback.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugel: 3 Valve vs. 4 Valve Reply with quote

Darth Trumpetus wrote:
I'm in the market for a flugelhorn and am trying to determine if a 4 valve is worth the extra $. I really like the idea of the extra range but am more concerned with a traditional flugelhorn sound. Not using it for jazz - need something that provides a color contrast to the trumpet sound. Have lots of experience with cornets, pics, and Eb's - just very little with flugelhorns.

Appreciate any suggestions/feedback.

I've played my 4-valve Getzen Eterna flugelhorn for 30+ years.

In college, I used the extended range to play a lot of alto horn and french horn parts in various brass ensembles. Nowadays, I primarily use my flugelhorn in a small jazz trio.

Here's my 2 cents.

The 4th valve extends the range, similar to a non-compensating euphonium. The bottom line is that the lower notes approaching Db are sharp. Low E and Eb below the staff are sharp, but correctable. Low D and Db require alternate fingerings to play in tune. (A 4th valve trigger might eliminate the need for alternate fingerings.) In addition, lower notes (starting at 2 C's below the staff) are easy to play in tune, but require some breath control to not sound like a tuba. So with practice, the low range is attainable, but will require some compromises.

My flugel has a bit more presence that other flugelhorns I've played. I don't know if it's the larger bore, larger bell, or the added weight from the 4th valve. Again, this is neither bad nor good. But you'll have to figure out whether or not you like it.

Mike
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Last edited by TrumpetMD on Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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trumpet.trader
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you plan on using the flugelhorn in ensembles where you’d be covering other parts and need an extended lower range, I can see the benefit of the fourth valve.

Or if you’re planning on playing your flugel in jazz settings or big band, or shows the only benefit would be for adjusting intonation with the fourth valve instead of using slides or your lip.

I’ve only seen one or two players using 4 valve flugs in my experience. I’ve tried a few at music stores over the years but they are heavier (obviously) more cumbersome and one more valve is just one more thing to worry about.

So unless you plan on covering alto or tenor voices somewhere, or you have a meticulous nature with regard to intonation I don’t see much use for the fourth valve.

Happy hunting,

May the Fourth be with you.....or not.
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Darth Trumpetus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the great feedback. It's a shame that most music stores don't carry many horns in stock any more where you can try them - that business model has really changed. Don't have a Dillon or Thompson Music type place nearby. Have to wait for TMEA to do any play testing.
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having only owned 3-valve horns in my time playing the flugelhorn, my impression when trying a couple 4-valved horns is that the slots were fairly wonky, and made the horn difficult to play, in a general sense.

No one has ever asked me to play below the usable range of the standard instrument.

Other people can make the larger horn work, it appears, but 3-valved instruments are much easier to play, in my opinion.
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Darth Trumpetus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never paid much attention to flugels so have been surprised to see the wide variation in bore sizes. The Schilke is a .406 bore and I've seen some of the 4-valve's listed as .460. At first glance that seems like it would make for widely divergent playing characteristics.

Thanks for the advise.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 3 valve Getzen Flugelhorns have always suited my needs very well and are not as heavy of the same horn in 4 valve configuration. Intonation was manageable on my oldest horn but really became a non-issue once I had a 3rd valve trigger installed (Getzen did not offer a flugelhorn in my model with a trigger when it was made in '76). I would recommend a 3rd valve trigger on any flugelhorn that you chose.

I use my Flugelhorns almost exclusively in my Church Brass Ensemble. The super dark sound of the .460 Bore coupled with the 41HF (Huge Flugel) Reeves mouthpiece helps produce the bridge voice between the Trumpet or Cornet voices, French Horn and Trombone. When accompanying Choral Voices, the dark Flugelhorn sound compliments and blends in a very pleasing way. I accomplish lighter and darker shading by using a Reeves 41FE mouthpiece for lighter and 41HF for darker and often swap between my '76 and '98 horns for even more contrast. The '98 is much lighter in weight and sound than the heavier and deeper resonance of the '76 though both share the same model designation.

Whatever brand instrument you choose, I would suggest playing and holding 3 and 4 valve versions (if available), each for a pretty good while to get a concept of weight in A/B comparison.

Best Wishes,

Mike
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Trumpetus wrote:
I've never paid much attention to flugels so have been surprised to see the wide variation in bore sizes. The Schilke is a .406 bore and I've seen some of the 4-valve's listed as .460. At first glance that seems like it would make for widely divergent playing characteristics.

Thanks for the advise.

Great question. For me, when comparing small bore vs large bore, here is my experience. To the audience, both larger and smaller bore horns "sound" like a flugelhorn. However, to the player, a larger bore horn "feels" more like a trumpet. In addition, a larger bore horn can be pushed more without choking off the sound.

Mike
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugel: 3 Valve vs. 4 Valve Reply with quote

Hello Darth Trumpetus, I am also researching a 4-valve appropriate for classical and other genres. To be specific, my goal is to find a 4-valver that is not simply a typical dark-fluffy horn, but one capable of considerable expressive power, and able of generating upper overtones, while maintaining a solid lower core, and a modicum of resistance to breaking up when pushed.

I have not had the opportunity of play-testing any 4-valvers in person yet, but have heard a number of clips of various models and brands, both on Youtube, and on clips sent to me by a TH friend. This far, my leading contenders in no particular order are:

* Stomvi Titan 4-valve with 6.06 inch copper bell. The Stomvi offering is particularly interesting, because it is shipped with a supplementary fourth slide tuned to the tritone, in addition to the standard one tuned to the just fourth. The tritone slide is designed to let one play chromatically down into the pedal range, without resorting to lipping acrobatics.

* Adams F4, which is imported in the US by Trent Austin at AustinCustomBrass. The F4 may be the most customizable of all 4-valvers that I have found readily available in North America... Bell diameters are selectable from 6.0, 6.3, and 6.7 inches. Available bell materials are yellow brass, gold brass, gold brass with nickel silver flair, red brass, red brass with nickel silver flair, copper, and sterling silver. Bell Thickness ranges from 0.45 mm to 0.60 mm. Finishes are raw, antique, lacquer, satin, silver plate, and gold plate. I have heard that you might also opt for the heavy valve block used on the F2. On F4, I am currently favoring the 6.7 inch bell in Copper, which for what I can tell may yield a greater harmonic texture than red brass or red brass with nickel flair, while still retaining a solid dark core. One thing to bear in mind with F4 is that triggers are not standard on this model, and if you want one, you need to specify it when you order your unit.

*
Getzen 896 with 6.5 inch yellow brass bell. I have heard a number of disappointing clips of this flugel on Youtube over the years... However, a friend of mine sent me a series of clips of his unit which, while sounding slightly more brilliant than the Stomvi and the Adams F4, still maintained a great lyrical flugelly character, with just the barest touch of trombone, and did not seem to exhibit any of the intonation problems reported on old 896 units. The mouthpiece that seem to suit this flugel best for an orchestral tone in the clips of my buddy was the Yamaha Bobby Shew. Ah yes, no triggers on 896 are provided.

*
Another obvious choice would be the Kanstul 1526 with its 6.5 inch copper bell... I own the 3-valve 1525 and absolutely love it... I am not considering the 1526 only so to diversify the tembre of my flugels.

Regards, Guido
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like many flugels but generally don't care for the 4-valve models. I wouldn't mind having one but not as my only flugel.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugel: 3 Valve vs. 4 Valve Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
...
* Stomvi Titan 170 4-valve with 6.7 inch copper bell. The Stomvi offering is particularly interesting, because it is shipped with a supplementary fourth slide tuned to the tritone, in addition to the standard one tuned to the just fourth. The tritone slide is designed to let one play chromatically down into the pedal range, without resorting to lipping acrobatics.


Notice that this model as pictured on the Stomvi-USA website has a trigger on the 1st and 4th slides...

http://stomvi-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Titan4ValveA.jpg

...but on the main Stomvi website (Spain), it only shows a trigger on the 1st slide:

https://stomvi.com/en/products/instruments/flugelhorn/bb/1127-titán-bb-4-valve-flugelhorn

Maybe K.O. or Jon can add some clarity here.

GuidoCorona wrote:
...
* Adams F4, which is imported in the US by Trent Austin at AustinCustomBrass. The F4 may be the most customizable of all 4-valvers that I have found readily available in North America... Bell diameters are selectable from 6.0, 6.3, and 6.7 inches. Available bell materials are yellow brass, gold brass, gold brass with nickel silver flair, red brass, red brass with nickel silver flair, copper, and sterling silver. Bell Thickness ranges from 0.45 mm to 0.60 mm. Finishes are raw, antique, lacquer, satin, silver plate, and gold plate. I have heard that you might also opt for the heavy valve block used on the F2. On F4, I am currently favoring the 6.7 inch bell in Copper, which for what I can tell may yield a greater harmonic texture than red brass or red brass with nickel flair, while still retaining a solid dark core. One thing to bear in mind with F4 is that triggers are not standard on this model, and if you want one, you need to specify it when you order your unit.


I recently bought an F4 from ACB, but in all fairness to other parties, there are a few other music stores in the US that import the Adams line. I got the 6.7-inch bell with a red brass bell and nickel silver flair. It has plenty of crispness for the articulation and lots of overtones in the sound, but yet tons of depth, which is one thing I wanted. Many players prefer a lighter flugel sound and want to steer away from a heavy, trombone-like character. I wanted the latter, so that there is noticeable contrast to my B-flat/C trumpet sound. Different strokes. I have continued to use my Wick 2FL mouthpiece that I've played for years, but I also picked up the Yamaha Bobby Shew and a few others that seem to work well. I'm still evaluating. One of my main reasons for choosing this flugel was the options, availability, and price point. If they had had one with the copper bell and/or with a trigger on the 4th slide (which is a completely different custom slide/trigger build they can do, but is not advertised), then I may have opted for such. I did get a 3rd trigger sent to me that I will have installed locally. It was not that expensive ($25). This will allow me to manipulate all 3rd valve sharp notes in the low register and should cover me down to pedal C.

GuidoCorona wrote:
...
* Getzen 896 with 6.5 inch yellow brass bell. I have heard a number of disappointing clips of this flugel on Youtube over the years... However, a friend of mine sent me a series of clips of his unit which, while sounding slightly more brilliant than the Stomvi and the Adams F4, still maintained a great lyrical flugelly character, with just the barest touch of trombone, and did not seem to exhibit any of the intonation problems reported on old 896 units. The mouthpiece that seem to suit this flugel best for an orchestral tone in the clips of my buddy was the Yamaha Bobby Shew. Ah yes, no triggers on 896 are provided.


Presuming you're referring to the clips I sent you, Guido, my dear friend, I'm pretty sure I recorded mainly on my Denis Wick 2FL, which V. Cichowicz had recommended years ago, when I was playing a Yamaha 631. I owned the Getzen 896 (4v) for five years, until I decided to move up to an Adams this past fall, although I don't know that that's fair to Getzen. Their horn is advertised as a semi-professional horn, but I understand Doc played it! I really liked that horn and played it in professional settings. It does have more brilliance than the Adams F4, which you might not expect with the size of the Getzen bore at .460, but both of those horns have a lovely quality that can be incorporated in many situations.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DSTPT, you are right... I stand corrected... I relistened to all the 9 or so clips that you sent me, and the only one where you seem to have used the Yamaha Bobby Shew is #8, where you play part of the posthorn solo from Mahler's 3rd symphony.... I guess I was enchanted by its tone, and so created a "fantastic" memory around the Shew piece... Out of whole cloth, so to say :).

Relistening to your entire series of clips, I find it remarkable how even the deep Wick 2Fl can yield on the F4 with RBNS bell (red brass with nickel silver flair) a crisp and expressive texture filled with harmonics well into the higher treble range.


BTW, I seem to like the tembre of you playing the F4 with the 4-banded tuning pipe even more than the 3-banded one, even though you mention that it feels somewhat tight.


G.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
BTW, I seem to like the tembre of you playing the F4 with the 4-banded tuning pipe even more than the 3-banded one, even though you mention that it feels somewhat tight.


I'll definitely have to spend some more time on both tuning pipes. I tend to narrow a choice down as quickly as I can, so that I can "get down to business and just play, play, play," but it appears from your critical ear that I should give the 3-banded tuning pipe a little more of a chance! Thanks for the feedback, Guido!
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DSTPT, why not record a clip on your F4 with the 3-banded pipe, and another one with the 4-banded one... Let's see if there is a real tone difference between the two, or I am just "imagining' things :)

Guido
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Josh McDonald at ACB, F4 with gold brass bells do not suffer from dampening of lower harmonics over red brass and copper... He further added that military bands, as well as ensemble and orchestra players favor F4 with gold brass or GBNS (gold brass with silver nickel flair) bells.... GBNS is supposed to add some agility and crispness of attack over regular gold brass.

G.
Conversely, most players in general, as well as Trent and Josh prefer RBNS (red brass with nickel silver flair).
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Darth Trumpetus, have you reached a decision on a 4-valve flugel, or are you stil questing?

G.
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my mind, you guys are creating a veritable "Rubik's Cube" of myriad combinations and options ... not-to-mention the parallel set of variances with asundry mouthpieces.

Somewhat akin to enscribing the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution on a grain of rice.

For-what-its-worth ... I play several iterations of the Martin Fleugels, including Handcraft, RMC-era, and modern-era horns. Generally, with vintage Al Cass mouthpieces ... including the "Dizzy"-spec model.

Occasionally, I drag out a Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire, and an F. Besson (Paris) Fleug, to "cover all the bases", sonically.

I've tried 4-valve Fleugs. Not my "cup-of-tea", or worth the bother.

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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Robert... Guilty as charged... And enjoying every minute!


I actually use spreadsheets to configure candidates of my hopefully-upcoming 4-val flugel... I am down to two likely candidates, in no particular order:


Adams F4 4-valve
Stomvi Titan 4-valve


G.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guido,

Very sorry I responded to your valve caps questions and that post along with several others got deleted.

In short I think the German silver or heavier caps will work best on the Flugelhorn. The lighter titanium caps can have a positive effect on trumpets but for flugelhorn I do not see an advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much Jon, I actually managed to read your post and respond to it, just prior to the Grand Nuking *Grins!*

You mentioned in pargicular that German silver (a.k.a. Silver Nickel, ak.a. alpacca) would be your choice on the 4-valve flugel, owing to a slightly darker tone because of increased mass.... Actaully mass is probably about 1.75 times heavier than pure Titanium.


Any idea what type of trim Pacho Flores uses on the 4-valver that he plays on some of the videos that you Stomviers posted?


Once I make my final decision on the 4-valve flugel project, if I go for the Stomvi,
I might almost be tempted to get both trims... Ahem, yes, I am a hopelessly obsessive experimentalist and packrat.


Are other alloys available for the trim, other than German Nickel and Titanium?

Saluti, Guido
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