Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: What is Wayne Bergeron's concept fo compression?
Hi,
I just finished watching Wayne Bergeron's great video "Playing High Notes with Wayne Bergeron' on hip-bone music. He talks about "compression". I'm familiar with the concept of the abs/wedge/etc low down and tongue arch further up, for compression of the air, as well as compression of the lips. But whenever he says "compression" he points to the mouthpiece. I don't get it!
He also doesn't seem to change his embouchure over 3 octaves and doesn't think that he uses tongue arch, which seems amazing.
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject:
As for tongue arch, I can understand not using it in a traditional way. For example, I don't anchor my tongue to my bottom teeth. I raise the back of my tongue freely, which seems to work better without inhibiting tounging. Anything at Double G or above though I don't use tongue arch at all. In fact, I lower my tongue automatically to increase airflow and oral cavity size. My theory is that this is kind of similar to opening the ports on an air intake (you know, like on a hot rod with a hood scoop). It floods the engine (in this case the oral cavity) with air and basically supercharges the system by increasing compression, or in other words suddenly increases power.
Basically, I could see how Wayne doesn't use tongue arch. I suppose with enough practice one could be able to get up to around Double G or so without it, eliminating the necessity for it. I think I'm just weird though... I seem to reduce the oral cavity size from the back, creating a sort of pressure tank with my mouth. The diaphragm is the air pump, the tongue is the valve, the oral cavity is the pressure tank, and the lips are the regulator. At least that's how I think about compression.
Also, he could be referring to the mouthpiece as the final stage of compression. Give enough airflow with a tight enough mouthpiece and you can build up some serious compression. I honestly don't know though; I'm just speculating. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:25 pm Post subject:
If I do remember as well, I think I saw Maynard mention something in a YouTube video about lowering his tounging as he got way up there for the very reason mentioned prior. I do believe he also talks about receding his jaw while up there to allow the musculature to push forward more, creating more cushion, vibrating surface, available chop strength, and most importantly compression. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject:
I am not sure any of really know for sure what is going on inside our mouths when we play. We focus on feel and visualizations and often describe things very differently, but I’ll be what we actually do is much more alike than what we describe.
For me, it helps to think of tongue arch. I also think it takes more arch to hit a note as opposed to sustaining it. I would speculate the tongue initially comes up, the chops and/air adjust, and the tongue settles a bit. If it settles too far we fall off the note.
I do know it is all about balance and finesse. Too much air compression will make you black out, too much compression in the lips will pinch off the note, too much tongue arch and we overshoot and/or shut down the buzzing. Too little air and the note is weak or unobtainable, too little lip compression and higher notes won’t even speak, and too little tongue arch and we “shelf” at the harmonic below or overcomensate wth air and/or chop compression which wears us out or makes us black out. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:22 pm Post subject:
I just had a better idea... Why don't you just shoot him an email and ask yourself? Last I checked it was on his website. I haven't checked recently though, so that may or may not have changed. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
I just had a better idea... Why don't you just shoot him an email and ask yourself? Last I checked it was on his website. I haven't checked recently though, so that may or may not have changed.
Great idea...I'll do that.
And thanks for all the other info. I'm wondering if it's the back-pressure that's set up in the MP when you blow - this pushes the lips back on the teeth?
Wayne explains it pretty well in this video (even though the audio isn't that great). He uses two analogies in the video: blowing air through a garden hose versus a coffee stirrer/straw and lifting weights.
First, he talks about blowing through a garden hose. There is no resistance, and all your air escapes quickly. If you then blow through a coffee stirrer, there is now resistance and your body has to compensate for that resistance to keep the air moving. While not as extreme, playing higher on the trumpet is similar. Higher notes create more resistance which your body must compensate for by increasing compression. Wayne does this in his abdomen, or at least seems to do so in this video. There is also a video of the Big Phat Band recording "Too Close for Comfort." At the end of the video, you can see his stomach moving further and further in as he climbs to the double Bb at the end of the lick.
In the linked video, he also talks about lifting weights. He says a low C is like curling a piece of paper. It doesn't require any effort in your bicep to curl that small amount of weight. Adding more weight, like playing a C in the staff, increases the resistance (weight), and your body must increase compression to compensate for that increased resistance.
I believe he points to the mouthpiece in the Hip-Bone video because that is where he feels the resistance increase. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z
Stomvi Maurice Andre C
Kanstul 1025 Bb Flugel
Kanstul 920 Bb/A Piccolo Trumpet
Leon Merian (RIP) advocated rolling the tongue forward in the mouth as you go higher. This shrinks the oral cavity and increases the velocity of the air. LOW - Haaah - hai - haaay - ehhhh heeeee- ichhhh - sheee - ssss HIGH Sylables. I heard the same thing from a teacher in a major orchestra who had studied with Herseth, another advocate of sylables.
Leon had been a student of Walter Smith and George Mager.
Along with the sylables and breath support is emboucher: "Chops flat, corners firm." As you go higher, lean into the horn, don't pull it into your face and sneer (an isometric contraction between the buccinators and orbicularis orbis muscles).
As for tongue arch, I can understand not using it in a traditional way. For example, I don't anchor my tongue to my bottom teeth. I raise the back of my tongue freely, which seems to work better without inhibiting tounging. Anything at Double G or above though I don't use tongue arch at all. In fact, I lower my tongue automatically to increase airflow and oral cavity size. My theory is that this is kind of similar to opening the ports on an air intake (you know, like on a hot rod with a hood scoop). It floods the engine (in this case the oral cavity) with air and basically supercharges the system by increasing compression, or in other words suddenly increases power.
Basically, I could see how Wayne doesn't use tongue arch. I suppose with enough practice one could be able to get up to around Double G or so without it, eliminating the necessity for it. I think I'm just weird though... I seem to reduce the oral cavity size from the back, creating a sort of pressure tank with my mouth. The diaphragm is the air pump, the tongue is the valve, the oral cavity is the pressure tank, and the lips are the regulator. At least that's how I think about compression.
Also, he could be referring to the mouthpiece as the final stage of compression. Give enough airflow with a tight enough mouthpiece and you can build up some serious compression. I honestly don't know though; I'm just speculating.
Would you do a video so I can see what you are talking about???
Rod
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
