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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: 4 valve flugelhorn 🎶🎺 |
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Does anyone know anything about 4 valve flugelhorns? Does the fourth valve enable you to play in F? or does it work more like the fourth valve of a piccolo trumpet? _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I assume you mean can a low F be played using the fourth valve. Since I can play in F on three valve instruments.
Typically a fourth valve lowers the pitch by a fourth. They can vary, for instance my Piccolo can either be a fourth or a step depending on the crook I use.
The fundamental open notes do not change so the flugel would still be considered a Bb instrument even if built with the fourth valve. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: 4 valve flugelhorn 🎶🎺 |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | Does anyone know anything about 4 valve flugelhorns? Does the fourth valve enable you to play in F? or does it work more like the fourth valve of a piccolo trumpet? |
I own a 4-valve Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn, which I purchased about 40 years. I use the 4th valve as an alternate for 1+3, similar to a 4-valve piccolo trumpet. You can use it on alternate fingerings for D and C# below the staff.
You can also use it to reach notes below F# below the staff. Back in college, I used it to cover alto horn and trombone parts in a couple brass ensembles. But keep in mind that those low notes tend be sharp, and require some slide adjustments.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | I assume you mean can a low F be played using the fourth valve. Since I can play in F on three valve instruments.
Typically a fourth valve lowers the pitch by a fourth. They can vary, for instance my Piccolo can either be a fourth or a step depending on the crook I use.
The fundamental open notes do not change so the flugel would still be considered a Bb instrument even if built with the fourth valve. |
I meant does the 4th valve change the key and place the flugelhorn in F? it seems that the 4th valve acts more like the 4th valve of the piccolo.
I ask because in college we had only one horn player so the director asked the trumpet section to rotate and play horn parts on flugelhorn. I have a brass group but we no longer have a horn player. I was curious to know if a 4th valve flugelhorn can change the pitch from Bb to F. If so, it would make playing the horn part on flugelhorn easier if we brought in a trumpet player to join. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | I meant does the 4th valve change the key and place the flugelhorn in F? it seems that the 4th valve acts more like the 4th valve of the piccolo.
I ask because in college we had only one horn player so the director asked the trumpet section to rotate and play horn parts on flugelhorn. I have a brass group but we no longer have a horn player. I was curious to know if a 4th valve flugelhorn can change the pitch from Bb to F. If so, it would make playing the horn part on flugelhorn easier if we brought in a trumpet player to join. |
I did the same back in college. At that time, I experimented with holding down the 4th valve, and playing it like an F horn. But the intonation was pretty squirrelly. Instead, I found it easier to transpose while playing, especially since I was playing off of F horn, Eb horn, and trombone parts.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting idea. If you did it you would need to pull each of the other crooks since the fundamental length of the horn is now longer. This might make the intonation less squirrelly. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Interesting idea. If you did it you would need to pull each of the other crooks since the fundamental length of the horn is now longer. This might make the intonation less squirrelly. |
Yes. If I was more patient, it might have worked out.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:25 am Post subject: |
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On a conventional 4 valve instrument, 4th valve is the same as 1+3. So pressing 4 is the same as pressing 1+3. That makes it easy to remember: 1+3=4. Especially with lower brass, the use of 4th valve is encouraged instead of 1+3 due to the layout of the instruments don't always lend themselves to easy kicking of slides. So 4th valve, primarily, is a tool for intonation, not necessarily lowering the range.
But unfortunately, when the 4th valve is used to lower the range, it is not that simple. Remember that pitch is geometric, not linear. So to get valve combinations using 4th valve in tune, you have to pull or lip something. Usually 2+4 for low F# and C# are not so sharp and they can be lipped into tune. But Low F 1+4 usually needs a slide kick of either 1 or 4 or both, and it goes on down from there with either longer slide kicks or alternate tunings and lippings, like 3+4 for low E natural, kicking out 3rd, etc. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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iiipopes wrote: | But unfortunately, when the 4th valve is used to lower the range, it is not that simple. Remember that pitch is geometric, not linear. So to get valve combinations using 4th valve in tune, you have to pull or lip something. Usually 2+4 for low F# and C# are not so sharp and they can be lipped into tune. But Low F 1+4 usually needs a slide kick of either 1 or 4 or both, and it goes on down from there with either longer slide kicks or alternate tunings and lippings, like 3+4 for low E natural, kicking out 3rd, etc. |
Very good observations. On my Getzen, low F (1+4) is a bit sharp. And the lower you go, the sharper the notes become. By the time I get to low C# (1+2+3+4), I'm more than a 1/2 step sharp. You can still make it work, with alternate valve combinations and pulling out the 4th valve kick slide.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: |
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And this is how I learned to play french horn in college. I loved it. Went from a large section of trumpets to a small section of two horns. The great thing about the switch is that trumpet players don't have problems with range on horn. Or really endurance issues either. It's just a question of learning to play the infernal instrument. Forty years later I picked it up again and I still love playing it. So my suggestion is learn to do both. More chances to play. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | And this is how I learned to play french horn in college. I loved it. Went from a large section of trumpets to a small section of two horns. The great thing about the switch is that trumpet players don't have problems with range on horn. Or really endurance issues either. It's just a question of learning to play the infernal instrument. Forty years later I picked it up again and I still love playing it. So my suggestion is learn to do both. More chances to play. |
I doubled in high school for a bit before I stopped playing altogether before I went to college. I am a trumpet player primarily, but enjoy the sound the horn can produce. Now I own my own horn :)
I had stumbled across a 4-valve flugelhorn that read in the description that it can be pitched in F like a horn that uses a rotary. It was a brand from India, so you know.... I was curious to know if there are reputable makers that had done something similar in the past.
Back on target:
Is there a thing such as a compensating 4-valve flugelhorn? so the lower notes are better in tune? _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | ...Is there a thing such as a compensating 4-valve flugelhorn? so the lower notes are better in tune? |
I have a custom 4v (3+1 rotor) build coming to me from B.A.C. that addresses the issue with a trigger to a main tuning slide on the bell branch. It is their first flugelhorn, was debuted at the jazz festival in Reno this past weekend, and it turned out great! Hopefully, it will arrive next week. It has been in the works several months, and I had alluded to it on another 4v flugel thread last summer. Be checking the TH posts, where I plan to provide details in a new thread! (How do you like that teaser?!) And yes, it involved some serious do-re-mi. Not sure what they will charge on future builds. |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: |
I have a custom 4v (3+1 rotor) build coming to me from B.A.C. that addresses the issue with a trigger to a main tuning slide on the bell branch. It is their first flugelhorn, was debuted at the jazz festival in Reno this past weekend, and it turned out great! Hopefully, it will arrive next week. It has been in the works several months, and I had alluded to it on another 4v flugel thread last summer. Be checking the TH posts, where I plan to provide details in a new thread! (How do you like that teaser?!) And yes, it involved some serious do-re-mi. Not sure what they will charge on future builds. |
Quite a tease. Please share, I would be interested to learn more and hear this comp. 4v flugelhorn you're getting built. It might be an answer to our horn situation, but then again it might be cheaper to just keep searching for a horn player. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | dstpt wrote: |
I have a custom 4v (3+1 rotor) build coming to me from B.A.C. that addresses the issue with a trigger to a main tuning slide on the bell branch. It is their first flugelhorn, was debuted at the jazz festival in Reno this past weekend, and it turned out great! Hopefully, it will arrive next week. It has been in the works several months, and I had alluded to it on another 4v flugel thread last summer. Be checking the TH posts, where I plan to provide details in a new thread! (How do you like that teaser?!) And yes, it involved some serious do-re-mi. Not sure what they will charge on future builds. |
Quite a tease. Please share, I would be interested to learn more and hear this comp. 4v flugelhorn you're getting built. It might be an answer to our horn situation, but then again it might be cheaper to just keep searching for a horn player. |
Yes, it's a custom build, and they really hit it out of the park, so honestly you might want to just look for a horn player after all! Ha! I doubt they'll ever price it anywhere lower than their custom trumpet price of $4500, and with the add-ons, it could be considerably higher. I'll share more in detail about it after it arrives, including pictures and maybe a video. After waiting for so long, I really thought I might end up selling it and buying a 4v Possegger Fluppy with a "pitchfinder," since I learned of that horn a few months after I placed my B.A.C. order in June. I think it even surprised the guys at B.A.C. that it all came together as well as it did. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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You can see Mike Corrigan holding it in a picture on their Facebook page as well as a brief clip of someone playing it.
https://www.facebook.com/coolisbac/ |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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[/quote]... I doubt they'll ever price it anywhere lower than their custom trumpet price of $4500, and with the add-ons, it could be considerably higher.[/quote]
Finding a horn player sounds a lot cheaper, lol. At some point I may just end of buying one of those Chinese 4v flugels and getting some work done to fix some of the intonation quirks and see what that sounds like... just for fun at that point. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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TrumpetMD wrote: | Very good observations. On my Getzen, low F (1+4) is a bit sharp. And the lower you go, the sharper the notes become. By the time I get to low C# (1+2+3+4), I'm more than a 1/2 step sharp. You can still make it work, with alternate valve combinations and pulling out the 4th valve kick slide.
Mike |
Thanks. Yes, multi-valve combinations require creativity to play the lowest register in tune. Actually, at this point, trumpet is my secondary instrument. It was my main instrument before I volunteered as a freshman in high school to play sousaphone in marching band in the mid-70's and went over to the dark side of low brass. Tuba players deal with these issues on a daily ongoing basis, as I do with my Miraphone tuba.
So, for example, if I have a 3-valve instrument that does not have rings, slides, or triggers, I set 1 a hair long so 1+2 is not so sharp. 3rd is set long so 2+3 is a hair flat so 1+3 is not to difficult to lip down into tune. This is what I do on my Queenie Flugel, and with a contemporary Queenie mouthpiece it plays absolutely in tune all the way from the bottom to the top. Yes, I have a predictable solid register on Flugel above the top of the staff. No, it is not a "dark" tone, which is the current rage, but which I see as, well, devoid of character and blend, and deprives a flugel of its true character. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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iiipopes wrote: |
This is what I do on my Queenie Flugel, and with a contemporary Queenie mouthpiece |
Are you referring to Queen Brass a maker based in India? Amazon has a ton of those advertised. Is your horn a completely different brand? _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:02 am Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | iiipopes wrote: |
This is what I do on my Queenie Flugel, and with a contemporary Queenie mouthpiece |
Are you referring to Queen Brass a maker based in India? Amazon has a ton of those advertised. Is your horn a completely different brand? |
"Queenie" is a nickname for Couesnon. See my signature. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Holding the fourth valve down on a four-valve flugelhorn and trying to play in tune is like engaging the F-attachment on a trombone and trying to play in tune -- while insisting on using Bb slide positions. It ain't gonna work.
And having owned a Holton contra-alto trumpet for a long time, let me assure you that you can't pull the slides of a Bb flugel out far enough for F tuning. And if you had special F-slides built you'd have spent a lot of money for a horn that didn't play in tune, and...
For less money than having slides custom-fabricated you could buy a used marching french horn in F.
Here's the first one that popped up in a google search, but it may be an example of the accursed Getzen Frumpet:
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=302867572614&category=16215&pm=1&ds=0&t=1546844884000&ver=0
Even if it is a Frumpet, it will almost certainly be no more awful than a Bb flugelhorn with expensive custom-built F slides. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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