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ackmondual
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 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: Getting out of the habit of blowing puffs of air? |
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| I started off on trumpet, and ended up blowing puffs of air instead of the suggested method of blowing one continuous stream interrupted by your tongue. Were there any tips and tricks to get away from this? I take it that how you tongue can vary is left to us to find out, as it varies per individual (although I recall striking the upper front teeth is a good rule of thumb)? |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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How long have you been playing?
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ackmondual
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:04 am Post subject: |
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From elementary school to High school. Followed by a few years in college. Stopped for about 15 years, then back again for a couple years now. Never practiced much prior, nor took any lessons.
I'm also now on euphonium, but the question still remains. |
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trumpet.trader
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Joined: 02 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:17 am Post subject: |
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I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
Even try just blowing air, thinking of the candle with out the horn while playing the music. Then add the horn after a couple tries. |
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
Even try just blowing air, thinking of the candle with out the horn while playing the music. Then add the horn after a couple tries. |
Excellent advice.
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1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
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homecookin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Practice LONG TONES !!!
The old-fashioned kind of long tones, where you start with a good clean PP attack and crescendo to a MF or possibly a F and then decrescendo back down to a PPP,
holding each long tone for 16 counts... eight counts crescendo eight counts decrescendo.
Do this throughout your entire range. This is the best way to develop breath control, and a steady even tone, and dynamic control. |
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cbtj51
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | Practice LONG TONES !!!...
...Do this throughout your entire range. This is the best way to develop breath control, and a steady even tone, and dynamic control. |
+1
Playing long tones at the beginning of each day during warmup has been a game changer regarding most of my comeback successes, allowing for focus on good foundational principles required for pleasing tone production. Beginning on G on the second line for about 8 counts, then a half step down to F# for 8 counts, back to G, then F, etc...to low F#. Rest for a few minutes, then begin the process again, but this time ascending to the top of your functional range. For me, many things are brought in focus by doing this, steady breath support, consistent sound from pitch to pitch, slotting of each interval and interval relationship, among many other aspects. I vary my volume throughout to keep it interesting, but always begin and end as softly as possible. This entire exercise takes about 10 minutes and makes the rest of the practice session much easier for me. My endurance and range have benefited greatly as well. As in everything else, this works for me, but you may have a different experience.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad
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homecookin
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
I was thinking the same thing as Brad 361 was.
Except for some kind of occasional special effect,
stopping the breath with the tongue is extremely
counterproductive, especially for young students. |
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Brad361
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
I was thinking the same thing as Brad 361 was.
Except for some kind of occasional special effect,
stopping the breath with the tongue is extremely
counterproductive, especially for young students. |
Exactly. And if a kid gets in the habit of stopping notes with their tongue, it’s often very difficult to break that habit. It was the first thing my private lesson teacher had to address with me when I first started taking lessons. it’s one of those things that’s difficult for a band director to properly address dealing with an ensemble, so without individual instruction kids get in the habit.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Billy B
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JVL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: | | homecookin wrote: | Practice LONG TONES !!!...
...Do this throughout your entire range. This is the best way to develop breath control, and a steady even tone, and dynamic control. |
+1
Playing long tones at the beginning of each day during warmup has been a game changer regarding most of my comeback successes, allowing for focus on good foundational principles required for pleasing tone production. Beginning on G on the second line for about 8 counts, then a half step down to F# for 8 counts, back to G, then F, etc...to low F#. Rest for a few minutes, then begin the process again, but this time ascending to the top of your functional range. For me, many things are brought in focus by doing this, steady breath support, consistent sound from pitch to pitch, slotting of each interval and interval relationship, among many other aspects. I vary my volume throughout to keep it interesting, but always begin and end as softly as possible. This entire exercise takes about 10 minutes and makes the rest of the practice session much easier for me. My endurance and range have benefited greatly as well. As in everything else, this works for me, but you may have a different experience. |
hello
careful with long tones this way...Mostly for warming up, you must not work like for developping stamina.
So, pay close attention to rest enough between sequences.
best |
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Rompson
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Joined: 04 May 2013
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
Just out of curiosity, how do you teach your students to articulate then?
FWIW, I usually tell my students to "interrupt" the air with the tongue, like a garden sprinkler. That mostly gets the idea across. |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
Just out of curiosity, how do you teach your students to articulate then?
FWIW, I usually tell my students to "interrupt" the air with the tongue, like a garden sprinkler. That mostly gets the idea across. |
Just say DAH DAH DAH. The air NEVER stops.
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trumpet.trader
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Joined: 02 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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The OP asked how to not “hoof” his notes but rather have a steady stream of air.
If the music has a line of notes that aren’t slurred, how else are you going to define, and start and stop the notes with OUT using your tongue and not stopping every note with your lungs?
If you’re not slurring, and not hoofing the notes with puffs of air you HAVE use the tongue to interrupt the airflow.
Tonguing is usually the weakest aspect of most young (and lots of amateur and professionals) playing. That’s why most beginners are always slurring everything and playing out of tune, because working on and using articulations is hard and takes effort. |
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Rompson
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Joined: 04 May 2013
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
Just out of curiosity, how do you teach your students to articulate then?
FWIW, I usually tell my students to "interrupt" the air with the tongue, like a garden sprinkler. That mostly gets the idea across. |
Just say DAH DAH DAH. The air NEVER stops. |
Interesting. I definitely agree that the air never stops. Seems like a philosophical difference. I was always taught that the air never stops, but that was the job of the lungs, diaphragm, etc. |
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snichols
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | homecookin wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
I was thinking the same thing as Brad 361 was.
Except for some kind of occasional special effect,
stopping the breath with the tongue is extremely
counterproductive, especially for young students. |
Exactly. And if a kid gets in the habit of stopping notes with their tongue, it’s often very difficult to break that habit. It was the first thing my private lesson teacher had to address with me when I first started taking lessons. it’s one of those things that’s difficult for a band director to properly address dealing with an ensemble, so without individual instruction kids get in the habit.
Brad |
Agree with Brad and Homecookin. I had a teacher that taught me the tongue-stopping method (picturing your thumb over the end of a garden hose), and it actually did me more harm than good. Also, trying to blow out a candle from 4 feet away is overkill for how hard you actually blow through the horn.
Also, the long tone advice is good. I have had this same issue for years, and what has helped me a lot is doing long tones, intermixed with articulations of increasing intensity. For example, at maybe 60bpm, start out with a whole note, then do 4 beats of long, legato quarter notes, followed by long legato 8th notes, back to quarters, back to whole note. The whole time, focusing on letting the sensation of the long tone bleed into the tongued notes. Continuous air with just a light flick of the tongue. Do this for a while and then start trying the same full note values, but start to gradually increase how firmly you tongue. You can also start to increase the speed and do triplets and 16th notes, but in tandem with the long tones. Bonus points if you start your long tone with a "hoo" attack.
It also helped me to get rid of vibrato for a while. That helped get me focused on the steady, consistent sound I was trying to make. I had previously been using excess vibrato perhaps as a way to make it feel like I was resonating more than I actually was. |
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Brad361
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Rompson wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | trumpet.trader wrote: | I used to tell my beginner students to visualize blowing out a candle that’s maybe four feet away from them. And only stopping the air stream with the tongue instead of the lungs.
...... |
Really?? Stopping the air with the tongue? That’s exactly what I tell students not to do, generally they develop a very harsh, percussive articulation style. Try this yourself: play a series of sixteenth notes at maybe 144 bpm and stop each note with the tongue, it will sound VERY harsh. I realize you were just talking about having a student stop a sustained tone with the tongue, but they’ll quickly develop the habit of doing that all the time.
Brad |
Just out of curiosity, how do you teach your students to articulate then?
FWIW, I usually tell my students to "interrupt" the air with the tongue, like a garden sprinkler. That mostly gets the idea across. |
Just say DAH DAH DAH. The air NEVER stops. |
Interesting. I definitely agree that the air never stops. Seems like a philosophical difference. I was always taught that the air never stops, but that was the job of the lungs, diaphragm, etc. |
I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Rompson
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Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Just say DAH DAH DAH. The air NEVER stops. |
This. Use vocal production and diction as the model. Pronounce and connect your notes like a singer. |
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