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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.
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 Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: “Holy Grail” horn stand? |
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| RandyTX wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | sometimes they absolutely insist there be no cases on the stage. |
I love this, given that there might be a bunch of monitors all over, a dizzying array of effects pedals, cables, and all sorts of other junk. Or a drummer that brings 15 cymbals, a dozen toms, and never hits more than 3 of each all night.  |
Yeah, no kidding!
Maybe my answer would be to only do gigs in seedy bars where no one cares!😉
Brad
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trickg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: |
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One time I had a horn knocked over and it caused enough damage to the horn to render it unplayable. Do you know who knocked it over? Me. Total accident that occurred due mostly to a stage area that was way too small, and I knocked it over when I was moving something else to try to make adjustments for the small stage space. If I had had it on a K&M 5-leg stand, I doubt it would have gone over, but it was on my taller, Hamilton 3-leg stand.
Otherwise, I've had more damage done to my horns in the middle of gigs by other players than anything else. For a while we had this real spazzy sax player who clunked his sax into my flugel a couple of times DURING the gig as he was putting his horn on his stand next to mine.
I also once had that same flugle damaged when the trombonist accidentally caught the tuning peg on the bass on the stand in front of him (we were backline in the band) and he pulled it down backwards - it was a glancing blow that left a groove-like dent in the copper bell of my flugel.
I'm not saying that things can't happen - they do. Anyone who has gigged any amount at all has stories about something happening to an instrument due to some event or circumstance. I'm just saying that in my experience, things are far more likely to occur during the gig itself than between sets.
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dstpt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | That leave it on the stand don't worry about it works great, until a horn player decides to put their high heel through your bell on a gig.
Ask me how I know. |
<deleted by poster>
Last edited by dstpt on Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Seen and had too many damaged horns over the years to leave it in the open on stage. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've a number of friends who have had anything from dings to totally smashed horns from various on-stage happenings (section mate knocks it flipping pages or grabbing music, snagged on a light cord, music stand from 'bone in front knocked over onto a horn when he stood to solo, one ding from a dropped mouthpiece by another player, etc. etc. etc.) So "forget about it" does not work for me and I put it in the case when I am not by it (and being by it is still no guarantee, natch). Haven't had a problem with the "no cases on stage" set though have dealt with it. Usually a case under the chair is fine for us (trumpets in the back row; pity the bones and saxes) and sometimes under the stage or just behind is fine. Only a few times I've been forced to leave the case in the green room or wherever and it was a pain (I don't even really like walking down a crowded hallway with horns in hand). |
And just remember that this is what you will get from the person that knocks it over: "I'm sorry." And that's all you will get...or you might get, “Hmm,” from a lead saxophonist. Meanwhile, you have to deal with the trauma of someone disrespecting your professional space and damaging your personal property on a job site, where the house will not cover damages to your gear. Instead, you will find yourself having to make nice with the local brass repair tech the following work day to fit your repair into his already packed schedule with school horns. Oh, and the drive to your preferred brass tech, if you live in a major metropolitan area like some of us, could easily be 45 minutes one way. So you start to consider more and more when you put your horn in your chair or on a stand during a break if it will be safe enough to avoid these unknown variables...up-all-night-music-copyists (and I've been one of these, too), a clumsy low brass player telling a joke as he looks behind to deliver the punch line to the other following him off the flimsy riser while walking through the trumpet section area, string players that only have one way out of the pit for the junior high musical you're playing (and although they are probably more conscientious than any due to the expense of just one of their instruments, they often don't have any idea that they can't let their thick scarf drag and risk catching one of our horns on a K&M), and the list continues. For years I would do like the lead trumpet and leave it on my stand in the pit, but in more recent years, I’ve done some buying/selling/trading of equipment, trying to find better matches as my playing has “matured,” (or so I like to think), so I’ve changed my tune and moved over to the overly-protective camp. (I also took into account that the lead trumpet has access to his brother’s instrument shop in Louisiana and can get a new Bach or Benge whenever he needs one!)
And then throw in any special work you’ve had done on your horn(s): valve alignment, cryogenic treatment, custom trigger added, cryogenic treatment, new lead pipe, cryogenic treatment, MAW valves, cryogenic treatment, replacement bell from the time a guy stepped on your horn, cryogenic treatment, and this list continues…. “Ah, shoot. I don’t mind sending my horn off to Osmun or ACB or Charlie Melk or Dr. Valve or Del Quadro or Robb Stewart or Rich Ita or Mark Metzler or Bob Malone or Wayne Tanabe or Tom Green or Anderson Silver Plating or Josh Landress or Dan Oberloh…” and this list continues. I agree that some will throw caution to the wind, but as times goes and as your equipment becomes more a friend to you (as much as we fight it at times!), wouldn’t it seem better in some way to safeguard it/them when there’s the slightest potential for damage?! I digress. We really should be more trusting of our colleagues and sound guys. They know how important our instruments are and will be extra careful around them. Somehow, I just can't bring myself to be this trusting.
Now that we've thoroughly covered that, on to the subject of personal hygiene in the work place.... |
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Robert Rowe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="dstpt"
Now that we've thoroughly covered that, on to the subject of personal hygiene in the work place....[/quote]
... and, white sneakers  ....
~ r2 ~
The Rock'n'Roll business is pretty absurd ... but, the world of "serious music" is much worse. -- Frank Zappa
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OldKing
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I've decided that certain venues and situations require a "battle horn". Mine is a Bach CR310 cornet with a 5B for the flugel parts in the German band I play in. It also cuts a little better through everyone else playing forte 100% of the time. The "Gartenfests" are all about the beer anyways. I'm not risking my Schilke flugel around all the elderly beer lovers, both in the band and in the audience. Prost!
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trickg
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Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Rowe wrote: | | ... and, white sneakers .... |
Dad shoes!!!!!! I LOVE me some Dad shoes! If loving white Nike Air Monarchs is wrong, I don't want to be right! 
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Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | Option 1:
Option 2:
Option 3:
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| trickg wrote: | | Or, Option 4: |
Option 5, I guess:
How about someone designing a multiple-trumpet stand with a collapsable plexiglass enclosure? It would have to have a wide enough base to keep from tipping, have hinges for a door, and a lid, but it shouldn't be that visually obtrusive to the band leader, right?!
(I still think the second part of my Option 2 should be seriously considered: "...make the black cardboard "look" like a stage monitor(!) and just keep the case in prone position behind it!") |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | Option 1:
Option 2:
Option 3:
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| trickg wrote: | | Or, Option 4: |
Option 5, I guess:
How about someone designing a multiple-trumpet stand with a collapsable plexiglass enclosure? It would have to have a wide enough base to keep from tipping, have hinges for a door, and a lid, but it shouldn't be that visually obtrusive to the band leader, right?!
(I still think the second part of my Option 2 should be seriously considered: "...make the black cardboard "look" like a stage monitor(!) and just keep the case in prone position behind it!") |
Interesting idea. However I can see three drawbacks.
First, doors and a lid might make quick access during horn changes difficult.
Second, in my mind I see it as rather big and might not fit in tight quarters. Sometimes I split my instrumets on both sides of the stand due to space limitations.
Third, the glare from stage lights might be an issue. |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I evaluate each venue and decide about leaving the horn on the stand. If there is very little traffic and minimal clutter the I often leave the horn out. If there is traffic and clutter and mic cords,...then I usually put the horn in the case.
I've fantasized about a case that would open up and hold the horn in a position like a stand. but that if the horn were to be bumped enough or tilt enough the case would snap closed.
So far the only major horn damage I've had is when I was walking in a tight pit and tripped on a mic cord. Landed half on the corner of a monitor and half on my flugel. The flugel needed a new 2nd vale slide and a bell flair dent removed. My ribs and my hand took months to heal.
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dstpt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | Option 5, I guess:
How about someone designing a multiple-trumpet stand with a collapsable plexiglass enclosure? It would have to have a wide enough base to keep from tipping, have hinges for a door, and a lid, but it shouldn't be that visually obtrusive to the band leader, right?!
(I still think the second part of my Option 2 should be seriously considered: "...make the black cardboard "look" like a stage monitor(!) and just keep the case in prone position behind it!") |
Interesting idea. However I can see three drawbacks.
First, doors and a lid might make quick access during horn changes difficult.
Second, in my mind I see it as rather big and might not fit in tight quarters. Sometimes I split my instrumets on both sides of the stand due to space limitations.
Third, the glare from stage lights might be an issue. |
There would have to be a way for panels to flare out and for the lid to be cocked back and down out of the way to be usable while playing, and of course, using something like this would be dependent on space limitations. Using my Option 3 (mic stand with trumpet holders) might be the best match with a plexiglass enclosure. I did a quick google search and found a 24x36-inch piece for about $30 each, so it would cost over $120 for the main pieces, add in a lid and hinges and you're spending about $150. Then you have to deal with making the design collapsable for ease of transport. They make plexiglass in various colors, which might be a way around issues with light refraction. The colored plexiglass costs more, btw. Having some padding inside might be necessary, but you could use the clear plexiglass, which costs less, and then add colored, padded fabric inside to dull light refraction…maybe. Eventually, something like this becomes a labor of love and not something really marketable…at least from what I see.
Yes, always drawbacks to any newly-proposed design. I recently came across a video about the first Parker retractable ballpoint pen (1954). It took 66 engineers to design it!
https://youtu.be/MhVw-MHGv4s
…03:45 |
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trickg
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Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | Option 1:
Option 2:
Option 3:
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| trickg wrote: | | Or, Option 4: |
Option 5, I guess:
How about someone designing a multiple-trumpet stand with a collapsable plexiglass enclosure? It would have to have a wide enough base to keep from tipping, have hinges for a door, and a lid, but it shouldn't be that visually obtrusive to the band leader, right?!
(I still think the second part of my Option 2 should be seriously considered: "...make the black cardboard "look" like a stage monitor(!) and just keep the case in prone position behind it!") |
To me this sounds like a laughably bad idea. I mean, really? Is this seriously something you'd want? I mean, different strokes for different folks and all, but that's some serious overkill there.
How about Option 6:
Don't play out or gig at all because we're too afraid of someone breathing on our horn, or possibly looking at it cross-eyed. 
I dunno - maybe I'm being a bit too cavalier about it, but I've never been so attached to my horns, or so protective of them, that I was paranoid that something catastrophic might happen to them, and even if something did, I'd just figure out a way to get something else.
Maybe if I was playing something like a Monette or Harrelson or something that cost a great deal more money than the standard Bachs/Yamahas/Kanstuls/Schilkes that I've played and gigged over the years, I might be more concerned about it, but I play the horns - I'm the musician - and I'm sure I could find something else to gig on in pretty short order.
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Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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aTrumpetdude
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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It's easy to be cavalier until it happens to you. Maybe I'm overprotective, but as I said horn damage has happened to me and many others that I have performed with, so maybe there are just a bunch of gorillas on stage out here. Whatever. It doesn't really matter the cost of the horn, it's more about being without my main horn in a busy season (these things never happen in the off season, Murphy always wins). If we're going for over-the-top analogies, how about "I've run with scissors for years and never fallen, why worry?"
The worst is when a horn left on stage during a break is stolen. Happened once I can remember with a band I was in and the thief was never caught. Rare, sure, but again why take the chance?
I do agree the venue plays some part; less concern with the orchestra (stage removed from audience) than a cramped band gig with wires everywhere, knees and stands touching, and audience chairs all around the stage.
In any event it's unlikely anyone is going to convince the other side. - Don
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hose
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've spent money and a lot of time "dialing in" my horns to how I like them. I would be foolish to let that time and money be wasted on careless habits, either on stage or while transporting them. I value my time and the possible inconvenience if something happens to them. I've played enough horns that have proven to me that just not any horn works the best for me. They play fine. Just not optimal. Taking some insignificant steps to protect my investment and not worry works for me.
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Lately, I worry more about my ipad pro than my horn(s). Mostly because I think somebody is more likely to swipe it and disappear during a break than take or damage a trumpet.
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dstpt
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | ...To me this sounds like a laughably bad idea. I mean, really? Is this seriously something you'd want? I mean, different strokes for different folks and all, but that's some serious overkill there…. Maybe if I was playing something like a Monette or Harrelson or something that cost a great deal more money than the standard Bachs/Yamahas/Kanstuls/Schilkes that I've played and gigged over the years, I might be more concerned about it, but I play the horns - I'm the musician - and I'm sure I could find something else to gig on in pretty short order. |
You’re right. I have visited an extreme here, but I view all of this as an opportunity to brainstorm within a community of knowledgable peers. Perhaps, a design idea may be offered that will catapult another idea that will eventually prove reasonable and very doable. I rarely play in these types of on-stage venues. Most of my playing is musical theater in a pit, in a classical chamber orchestra on stage, or solo trumpet for wedding ceremonies and funerals, where nothing like this would be needed. I can easily keep my case by me when in the pit, so that’s not an issue, but the level of conscientiousness toward protecting my instruments has definitely changed due to the amount of time, effort, and money that has gone in to fine-tuning my arsenal. I used to be freer about all of this, but those days are gone. I’d much rather take extra precautions to protect what I have. For instance, I am more conscientious now about what could possibly fly around in the trunk of my car with my horns, like maybe a loose tire iron (or whether my horns should be back there in the first place!); and the horns may be okay if I hit a speed bump, but the condition of my case also matters. Different strokes? Agreed.
I have a former college student who now plays part-time professionally. He picked up a couple of horns in recent years that were dirt cheap, but he protects them like crazy…and I don’t blame him. They are great-playing horns. It wouldn’t have to be a Monette or Harrelson for him to realize their value. He’s done a lot of buying/selling/trading over the years to know when he has something he doesn’t want to loose or risk getting damaged. In this thread, TH listers have cited all kinds of experiences from crushed bells to stolen horns. I view those stories as reminders to be diligent and continue to be conscientious about my surroundings and protective of my equipment, even if I previously would have viewed a measure as overkill.
Just sharing ideas and trying to have fun with it…that’s all.
Last edited by dstpt on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Since I started what has gone 3 pages: in a period of about 43 years, I have had horns knocked off stands twice, once during a rehearsal (guitar player’s strap snagged the stand and put it second slide down onto a concrete floor 😱), once during a gig, similar situation, a mike cord grabbed it. First incident REALLY screwed up the second valve, second I got lucky, minimal damage. Not bad for the time span, but it CAN happen.
I’m not quite as obsessive compulsive about my stuff as I once was, but still realize anything can happen. My reason for starting this was just to see if there is some new super stand out there, obviously there is not. So I’m most likely going to continue to not leave a horn on a stand unattended, regardless of any “no cases on the stage” proclamations, just do what I have to do.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | The worst is when a horn left on stage during a break is stolen. Happened once I can remember with a band I was in and the thief was never caught. Rare, sure, but again why take the chance? |
There is always the possibility of the horn being stolen on stage or off. Unless the storage room is locked. But even then... |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | The worst is when a horn left on stage during a break is stolen. Happened once I can remember with a band I was in and the thief was never caught. Rare, sure, but again why take the chance? |
There is always the possibility of the horn being stolen on stage or off. Unless the storage room is locked. But even then... |
ANYTHING can happen, I think it’s a matter of playing the odds, and minimizing risk as much as is realistic. I will say that if I had a trumpet that for whatever reason was “irreplaceable”, maybe a family heirloom, etc., I would be pretty selective about which venues I would use it in. Then again, the opposite view is “it’s a musical instrument that’s made to be used.”
No perfect answers here.
Brad
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