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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:37 pm Post subject: Embouchure change to increase range. |
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I kinda wanted to title this "pros & cons of embouchure changes for range". The reason for that is that often when I hear of someone changing their embouchure I'm usually in disagreement with them for selecting that direction.
By the way, I started changing my embouchure a couple weeks before Christmas last month. Since then this is probably my first post. As I wanted to be darn certsin this new thing is working out before discussing it.
At times I feel that most or many decisions to change embouchure is not advised because the person advising the change, usually the teacher may not have a solid understanding of the physics involved. So his advice to the student is subjective,
"I play this way", or "So and so (a great player) sets his lips this way", "and so should you".
To my thinking this just isnt a strong enough argument to set a kid on a certain path. As it's almost a given that his new embouchure is going to be weaker or at least not sound so good. This can easily lead to an uncertain mind setting. Reducing the player's morale. Especially if the progress made on the new setting is slow.
However in my own case I've known for a long tome that my existing embouchure is limited in range. You might not think so if you heard me as I do have a pretty good upper register. Compounding that also is that Ive been playing a long time. So my accuracy is good. And yet sorry to say I've known or suspected for a long time that if I really wanted to play double C's for extended sets of phrases? I wasn't going to be able to do it on my existing chops.
But what to change to? This question is probably going to vary from one person to the next. Some forty years ago while in college I met a fellow student who had been helped greatly by Roy Stevens. My friend's range was a good sounding G above double C. And his high G through Double C he played with great ease. If perhaps his only flaw was that he didnt get a huge sound. Yet he could get a very solid forte on any written high note. So I had him teach me the Stevens-Costello embouchure system. One small problem,
It just didnt work for me. Couldnt get anything but a mezzo piano above high C and I had no accuracy at all. Eventually however I made an alteration to the embouchure. IE I rolled out my lower lip. Pow! That seemed to work!! Not sure why it works but Im not arguing... And so since the middle of last month Ive been practicing steadily on this. Progress has been consistent and fairly swift. What has helped most has been,
1. Patiently warming up.
2. Separating registers. Or practice in low register, rest. Practice middle register, rest. Practice upper register.
3. Arpeggios as found in the Maggio or Gordon system are great.
4. Clarke Technical studes "Etude II".
By the way, the Maggio and Gordon systems while helpful to many are anathema to Stevens-Costello. I just happen to like the arpeggio studies in them.
One of the trickiest matters is sustaining longer phrases. This is where the Clarke studies help. I remember once about ten years ago I had a really bad kanker sore right on the inside of my upper lip. Where the upper (sharp!) teeth rest against it and sandwich my poor lip between my razor like choppers and the hard mouthpiece. Well at that time one of the hardest things to do was to hold a long tone. Here Id been playing over 40 years but couldnt sustain a whole note for more than 6 beats!.
However that experience with the kanker sore taught me that it truly takes a refined embouchure to play sustained phrases. Most of us wont even think about this. Because for most good trumpet players its easy to blow a long phrase. Just so long as it doesnt have elements too tricky for our existing technique.
However with my new embouchure it is tricky to hold a sustained note or phrase. Thus we can understand why Cat Anderson used his "Twenty Minute G" exercise. Finesses seems to be the name of the game with learning the Stevens system. Cat Anderson had a set up like the Stevens system. He didnt study with Roy but his was a classic forward jaw embouchure with unlimited upper end. And lemme tell ya,
I'm very grateful to have lived long enough to get the opportunity to pull this thing off. If anyone needs any help with understanding the concepts of the Stevens-Costello embouchure? Feel free to write. Me. I will try my best to answer your questions. Please dont think that I consider myself an expert on the Stevens system but if I can be of help? Dont hesitate to contact me. When I have time? Will be glad to respond. And Im not dogmatic or insistent that I know everything about chops. But am glad to help.
And as time goes by I will post videos of my progress. Sorry that I dont have any so far but I just recently retired from business and money for things like video cameras is tight. But in time everything will work out.
Best, Lionel
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Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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lionel
you are talking about a large and personal subject so it's hard to proffer any advice.
i would say your feeling that your existing setup had limitations is enough to prompt whatever change you are making. what with the different mouths, teeth, and jaws whatever you do has to have basic soundness and sense and go with your physiology.
changes are murder but highly worth it. the couple i've made have been wonderful. |
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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
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Location: Northern Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Chuck. There isn’t much we can say other than good on ‘ya for figuring it out!!
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CJceltics33
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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The post was meant to receive advice. It was just a topic of discussion, I believe.
I find a lot of things you stated very interesting. As you know I am a Stevens player myself. I’d like some specification on the whisper G: How exactly do you do this exercise? I quit doing it because I found it enforced exactly the embouchure I didn’t want. A downward angle, top lip sticking out. Do you just blow into the horn as you would normally, but teeth shut? With my overbite I found it hard to reinforce the outward lower jaw with the teeth shut.
Also, why is it beneficial for you to separate register work? I have always strived to connect registers. Maybe this is where I’m going wrong...
Anyway good post and best of luck.
CJ |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| CJceltics33 wrote: | The post was meant to receive advice. It was just a topic of discussion, I believe.
I find a lot of things you stated very interesting. As you know I am a Stevens player myself. I’d like some specification on the whisper G: How exactly do you do this exercise? I quit doing it because I found it enforced exactly the embouchure I didn’t want. A downward angle, top lip sticking out. Do you just blow into the horn as you would normally, but teeth shut? With my overbite I found it hard to reinforce the outward lower jaw with the teeth shut.
Also, why is it beneficial for you to separate register work? I have always strived to connect registers. Maybe this is where I’m going wrong...
Anyway good post and best of luck.
CJ |
CJ,
Good to hear from ya! C/J and I are friends.
The reason why I separate registers in practice is, in part to actually help connect all three registers. There is no way that I would want to have a double setting. Like the typical,
Play everything from low F# to G top of the staff. Then take the mouthpiece off the lips, re-set and blow up the scale to a high G or whatever note the trumpet player has got left.
My statement that I like to "separate registers" in practice only appears to condone dual settings. When in fact I certainly do practice plenty of 2 to 3 & 1/2 octave scales daily. Or almost daily. However on a new embouchure or a young one that isn't experienced at blowing high notes the demands of playing multiple octaves on one breath can be just too much. Resulting in premature fatigue. And once the chops get really tired they can not gain anything from continuing. Not intil fully rested. Which means taking the rest of the day off. And clearly any exercise which reduces my stamina too swiftly is going to result in a less productive workout. I dont mind doing really challenging chop exercises. Such as the pencil execise or other isometrics. However to blowmy chops out doing three octave scales or arpeggios seems inefficient. Besides if I truly wsnt to exercise my chops? I can always wait until the end of my session and do the pencil thing.
So what I do on my new embouchure is set aside different times for different register work. And just so long as I dont set my lips in a radically different setting between registers there ought to be no concern about developing a multiple chop setting, ie: one for low notes, another for high.
Remember, I already have a decent set of chops. Granted it's somewhat limited but since the overwhelming majority of serious trumpet players can note blow a high F to save their life? Well not to brag but most all of these poor cats would love to have the kind of chops that my existing "limited" embouchure has.
Also, when I first started blowing good high notes on my existing embouchure I had some of the typical problems lots of kids have. For starters I couldnt articulate well. My chops werent very accurate and of course I had to re-set at G top of the staff in order to continue blowing from the low to high register. And as much of a pain in the butt that the nuisance of double embouchure settings was I did soon grow out of that problem. The way I did this was the same as I'm doing again. By,
A. First identifying the register disconnection while developing each of the three registers by practicing each one individually. Practicing each register separately takes into account the natural fact that the upper register does require strong chops and that excessive practice of two and three octave scales is just too demanding of a young embouchure. Meanwhile practicing in just one register at a time is fairly easy. Then as I said before,
"Once the three different registers become fairly strong it'll be easy to practice connecting them.
It is like the way we train middle school athletes to thrown the shot put. The coach doesnt give the poor kid a 16 pound shot. Heck he's only 13 years old! Instead the younger kids compete with an 8 pound shot. Then when they reach high school and early adulthood they're ready to move on to the 16 pound shot.
As per the whisper G? You know just use your better judgment. If something is too hard? And it just wears you out? Then you have what my brother used to call
"The law of diminishing returns".
You wouldnt keep investing in a stock which had a bad reputation and wasnt paying out dividends. Nor ever known to show a profit. Screw it! Just because the "Twenty Minute G" worked well for Cat Anderson doesn't make it's practice necessarily advisable to everyone. Here's an interesting observation,
One of the suggestions Roy Stevens gave his students was for them to
"Stay out of the lower register until they had connected their middle and high registers"
Now obviously this advice isnt applicable to everyone. Roy Stevens taught a very specific embouchure. Thus his advice was not meant for other trumpet players. Such as those already well developed on a receded jaw chop setting. Just like my own "natural" embouchure. Or the one Ive played on my whole adult career. First of all I really dont have a kickass double C on my receded jaw embouchure. So there's no point in practicing my double C. Because it's just way too hard to play a double C. Exhausts me too much. So I would be advised to play in all registers, low and high. At least on my receded jaw setting.
But now having started to learn the Stevens System, that and progressing nicely on it? I can truly see Roy's wisdom in avoiding the lower register at times. Sometimes I'm okay with it but sometimes it rattles weakly and tends to want to change my chop setting back to my old ways. Which reminds me...
I've been told somewhere that when Wayne Bergeron first started playing his trumpet as a boy that he quickly developed an outstanding double C. However he spent a couple years being wholly unable to blow a Low C. And this is typical of the Stevens embouchure! It is a chop setting almost of pure finesse. While it requires muscular development (as do all chop settings of course!) it is however largely a chop setting relying upon playing the most efficient way possible. And when a well developed Stevens System trumpet player blows a double C. To him its only about as physically demanding as when the rest of us blow the G top of the staff. I think Chris L once told me that
"a well trained Stevens System (or Reinhardt's "type IVA") has really got his stuff together?
He can play three octave intervals as easy as the rest of us play perfect fifths".
And Ive heard and seen them do it! Roy Roman for one. His interval exercises are accurate aa hell.
Think Ive written enough now. Gotta go practice! And thats the coolest thing once a trumpet player removes a major limitation. As a stymied range is just so frustrating that the unfortunate trumpet player suffering through his limitation often doesnt feel like developing the rest of his technique. I know that I used to feel that way. Its depressing. So a form of lethargy can set in. Sort of a "What's the use of trying?"
But no.more (: (: (:
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 am Post subject: |
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C/J Celtic,
By the way the reason why I dont try and insist upon a whole lot of register connection exercises in the early stages of high note development is for the same reason as why I wouldn't advise lots of tonguing practice up high. At least in the early stages of upper register progress. And the reason ought to seem obvious.
The baby crawls before he walks. Paying too much attention to tonguing practice in the early stages of high note studies seems to likely be counter-productive. Or in another analogy, the aspiring entertainer learns to juggle three balls before he tries four.
And yet if say tonguing comes easily to you? Then sure. Why not? Ditto register connection. If in the process of learning the notes over high C you could blow two and three octave arpeggios without re-setting the mouthpiece as soon as the first ledger lines appear? Well sure, of course. Do it.
As I recall my early days of playing high notes it occurred on the heels of getting ready to play college audition pieces. Like our most familiar "Haydn Concerto For Trompette in E Flat". While practicing the Hadyn I hadn't quite completely connected my lower to upper register. Unless I did re-set my chops? I couldn't pop the E Flat, three ledger lines above staff. And the highest note in the piece. At least ways I couldn't pop the note at the appropriate volume which requires a decent forte to double forte.
However the interesting characteristic of Haydn's immortal trumpet piece is that just so long as you have good overall technique and tone? It doesn't punish a trumpet player who must re-set his chops above the staff. One may in fact actually find enough time to re-set before ascending to the sixteenth note run leading up to the E Flat. Of course the necessity for some to re-set the chops is a nuisance and something to be corrected over time.
And yet just so long as you can descend from a high C down to at least a low C? You can probably make a decent go of most the first movement. Which as a typical college audition piece seems to be enough. Not when the applied trumpet prof has a dozen other applicants waiting ouside in the hall.
And while I'm thinking of it? The Haydn may be among the best exercises for connecting regisyers. As when I think back to my early stages of high note studies the one thing which helped me connect my low tones to the upper register was to actually practice the reverse: In other words when I wanted to train myself to blow solid high notes after starting in my lower register?
I worked on improving the quality of my low tones as I descended from the upper register! The Haydn insists that we have connected pur low tones after descending from the high C and such.
Like in the Stevens system this is more a matter of finesses as opposed to brute strength in the chops. Strength is necessary but probably not the majority effort involved here.
It was a fine teacher I had when I was a teen who told me not to allow my embouchure to get too loose just because I was playing low tones. He was 100% correct of course. As keeping a firm embouchure even on a low G seems to both connect the lower register to those notes well above and to improve the quality of the low G's tone itself too. When I listen to most amateur trumpets play below a low C I just don't hear their horn ring. And it's because they play too loose. And of course by keeping their chops overly loose just to get a low tone to emanate?
It's usually an indication that they don't have much of an upper registsr either. Doc Reinhardt warned of this as well. Mentioning that a "loose, flabby embouchure" should be prevented. Or words to that effect. Its all just common sense.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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