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Yips or trouble starting notes


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Hugh
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Yips or trouble starting notes Reply with quote

I am an experienced player with regular gigs. I often have problems starting notes, particularly below a low B. It's comparable to a darts player getting what they call the yips when they can't let go of the dart to throw it. It seems like an initial blockage.

There's no problem when I just blow the note without a t or when it's the second or later note, just when I have to start a note. It's much worse with notes below a B and doesn't happen much with notes above G on the second line. It also doesn't happen much when I'm playing live although I do find the lowest notes more difficult to produce cleanly.

Any of advice on a solution would be much appreciated.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Yips or trouble starting notes Reply with quote

Hugh wrote:
I am an experienced player with regular gigs. I often have problems starting notes, particularly below a low B. It's comparable to a darts player getting what they call the yips when they can't let go of the dart to throw it. It seems like an initial blockage.

There's no problem when I just blow the note without a t or when it's the second or later note, just when I have to start a note. It's much worse with notes below a B and doesn't happen much with notes above G on the second line. It also doesn't happen much when I'm playing live although I do find the lowest notes more difficult to produce cleanly.

Any of advice on a solution would be much appreciated.


Sometimes happens to me - reason always being chops having become stiff because of previous overload. No vibrations! I´ve found gently blowing pedals (for me preferably double pedals) - very helpful.
However the reason might be that you do not adjust your chops to the lower register, tongue not adequately positioned etc. But practicing low pedals should rectify. Me - I´ve gained flexibility by the BE method!
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I have found helpful with this kind of thing is practicing a lot with a metronome -- even things like long tones where it's not really "necessary." As well, try to observe your playing when you attempt these notes; I find that when my low register isn't behaving, it's often because I'm over-adjusting to play them. Playing exercises that start in the middle register and expand outwards might help, especially if you focus on keeping an even sound and not deliberately manipulating for the lower notes.
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cbclead
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that how I breathe can cause this. If I breathe too high in the chest, I get that sensation of not being able to start the note. If I breathe low letting the abdomen expand and letting my body support the air/create compression, it releases that tension and allows me to start the note.

The syllable used for intake helped me get over this. Wayne Bergeron advocates saying "HO" as you inhale. Malcolm McNab says Jimmy Stamp had his students use the syllable "UP" (sounds more like "HUP" with the sound of the air entering your body). Malcolm also says the P has the added benefit of putting the lips in the correct playing position at the end of the breath.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's great advice in this thread. I find pedal tones helpful to get my low register to speak. When low F# isn't the lowest note you hit on the horn, it's a lot easier to get it to speak.

Just like in the high register - where you practice higher than you want to perform, so you can reliably hit high notes - pedals help practice lower so you can reliably hit low notes.

Your mileage may vary, but it works for me. Good luck!
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JVL
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
use a visualizer to see what you're doing.
maybe use KTM instead of T tonguing
whisper tone to improve your response
...

hard to answer really here on the web
best
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First I'd work on breath attacks below the staff to ensure that your lips are reasonably set and that your air is being delivered in a way to get the lips vibrating. The goal here is to refine the lips so they respond immediately with ever less air. If problems persist then you can work on your tonguing technique to make sure it doesn't undo your lips or air coordination.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another thought:

Sometimes the problem can be in a place we were never looking for it.

Years ago, I was having problems sustaining high notes (A above the staff and higher). Couldn't keep 'em going and my chops would die. I spent about a year trying to figure out what was wrong with my embouchure, my lips, my tongue, everything.

It turns out that I was getting mentally hung up on those notes, and the tension was in my throat. I was literally closing my throat, like I was swallowing, when trying to play high notes. It wasn't my embouchure at all, it was my throat!

Once I started paying attention to playing with an open throat and nice relaxed "OH" breaths, the high notes just popped out with no effort and my life was easy again.

All of which is to say that what may seem like an embouchure issue can be something much further down the chain.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This happened to me. It got so bad that it ruined my playing. I quit playing trumpet after that. Sorry -- I don't have any advice for you.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Low notes can be stressful. I turn on my metronome and alternate practicing air patterns (just blowing an easy ta ta ta on my hand or at a dollar store pinwheel) with playing notes. Sometimes we get a little hitch in our air right at the point of playing. The air patterns can serve as a model for our playing.

Since it happens less on a gig, what about the gig makes it happen less? Are you more engaged with your musical mind rather than the mechanics? Perhaps your answer is committing more to engaging the musical mind in your practice and set aside mechanical thinking.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTrompeta wrote:
This happened to me. It got so bad that it ruined my playing. I quit playing trumpet after that. Sorry -- I don't have any advice for you.



sweet J-s. Ain ’t that a shame! I was in the same situation some years ago. Pro pointed out too much tension, too little air. Put me on the track again. However what really got things going was the BE. Saved me. And I was 72 on my 73:rd when I began. Do yourself a great favor: try BE!
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The area behind the mouthpiece must remain loose and flexible in order that it may vibrate slowly for the low notes and quickly for the high notes.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to stutter as a kid. If we're talking about the same thing, then this feels like that...getting hung up, not being able to "pull the trigger." It's a mental block, and most likely has nothing to do with physical limitations (although when you're locked up you're likely not breathing either!)

Using a metronome religiously solves the problem. In fact, when you're performing, you can imagine a metronome clicking off beats leading up to your note. I tend to mentally count myself in ("one...two...three...four")

Try using a metronome for every single thing you practice...all the way through each practice session and see if the problem doesn't go away.
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coraltrpt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been dealing with this throughout my life. I've had a couple teachers train me with metronomes, working on the front of every note. Using air attacks and t attacks. It would work sometimes, but over the long-term the problem would persist.

Much like the above comment, I believe it's a mental hangup. And the thing that had really fixed things for me was during lessons with Allan Dean. I would bring it up during lessons and he would just tell me to play the music. False starts are a really common problem that many players deal with in their career.

I think once you let go and allow yourself to make a "false start" on the sound, it starts to get better. The less I obsessed about the problem, the less it happened. It might happen on occasion these days, but it has largely disappeared.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Franquin method: read his guidance on preparing the lips to play, then practice the sound production exercises, followed immediately by his long tones exercises with crescendo/decrescendo.

Don't expect miracles right away. But if you practice these everyday following his guidance, you'll definitely see improvement.

He designed these exercises as a way for trumpeters to practice starting first notes consistently well, which he observed is more difficult on trumpet than other instruments like cornet or flugelhorn, especially when trying to start a first note very softly.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember years ago playing the Verdi Requiem and there's a passage where you have to play a double-tongued low G, pianissimo, with the whole section in unison, totally exposed. We were in our first rehearsal and I realized I couldn't do it. Lordy.

I practiced that for hours and hours and boy did I learn some things about low notes. I would just pick up the horn cold and double-tongue a low G. In the middle of practicing something else I would double-tongue that pianissimo G. By doing this every day for a while, I totally reconfigured my approach to the low end.

Anyway, if anyone needs some low Gs articulated quietly, hit me up, I got you covered.
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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try some alternating hoo and poo attacks working your way down from low C to F#
i think it will help you get your tongue out of the way of your brain. It's your brain that is causing this.

good luck

regards,

tom
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Hugh
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject: Yips or trouble starting notes Reply with quote

Many thanks to all posters for all the excellent advice. Problems with producing a low note seem to be more common than I thought.

I think the problem starts in my head which then leads to physical problems with air flow. I remember a teacher mentioning a noise in my throat years ago and that could be unnecessary tension which contributes to the problem. Using a metronome has already helped and foot tapping does a similar job.

I've been playing through Total Range (Peters) for 6 months and I have noticed improvements at both ends of my range. I'll have a look at BE and the Franquin method. I do think being more relaxed when practising to get everything flowing will be key.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
...maybe use KTM instead of T tonguing

What is KTM?
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
JVL wrote:
...maybe use KTM instead of T tonguing

What is KTM?


Claude Gordon's

KTM / K Tongue Modified:
(There are some who have erroneously call this "anchor tonguing.")

First a word about tongue placement. Say the syllables "aw - eee - aw - eee" and you will notice that the tip of tongue stays behind the lower teeth.

The tip of the tongue should not be anchored rigidly behind the lower teeth, since the tongue must be allowed to float up and down into the correct level for each note. Let the tongue tip go where it needs to go but no higher than the very top of the bottom teeth.

The tip, then, should be placed lightly behind the lower teeth, by the top of the teeth, not down at the gum line.

The front center portion of the tongue moves forward to make the attack against the upper teeth.

Tonguing in this manner has several advantages: Accuracy is increased, since the tip of the tongue is not constantly getting in the way of the air stream. Wide intervals become easy, since the tongue can instantly adjust to the level required of each note. And one can articulate much faster, since the tongue doesn't have as far to move.
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