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tim_wolf
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 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: Your Thoughts On "Firmness" |
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I'd like to get some opinions of what, to me, seems like contradictory advice.
When the 1930's exercise thread made a comeback a little while back, I did some experimenting with trying to play as relaxed as possible. I found my tone and my endurance improved.
When confuses me, is what I read in Lucinda Lewis' book "Broken Embouchures," where she teaches that players should set up with firmness, and using a "less structured setup" can cause problems. Her view is that players that suffer from overuse syndrome get into trouble when they start playing with this less structured setup, and that this exasperates their embouchure issues. Doc Reinhardt also taught to use "almost buzzing firmness."
Phil Smith could be used as a great example of someone who, by his own admission, had way too much tension, and made great improvements by getting rid of this tension.
What doesn't work for me with playing relaxed is playing above the staff. Once the mouthpiece pressure starts to increase, well, it hurts! When I'm more firm, this doesn't happen, but then my endurance goes down and the tone isn't as good.
Sometimes I wish I could go back about 40 years, when all I did was put the mouthpiece on my lips and played. Yea, I know I should do that now, but there's just so much information in the brain that it's tough to not think about it. Sometimes knowledge isn't power.  |
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JVL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:50 am Post subject: |
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hello
it's a balance issue, between agonistic and antagonistic muscles.
Some muscles must contract, while others not.
And relaxation is not eutonia. One must always have a certain amount of tonicity.
I think that by alternating ppp playing with ff playing, or whisper tones, etc., you 'll make the right adjustments for you, in every field (embouchure, technic, etc.) by yourself.
repetitions in awareness.
best |
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Jerry Freedman
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I think there is a difference between flexion and tension. For a beginner or comeback player holding the lips in any unnatural position is tension. As one gets stronger and acclimated to the trumpet what was once tension becomes mere flexion.
I always think back to "Zen in the Art of Archery" where the author notes that the Zen master is pulling back the bowstring and arrow with almost a totally relaxed arm. All the mediation, Zen mastery, and concentration in the world cannon contradict physics. The master has developed strength in the minimum muscles necessary to flex the bow and no longer needs the supporting muscles a beginner would use |
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JVL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:48 am Post subject: |
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i agree with you Jerry, but would not use "almost totally relaxed".
the absolute strength improving, diminishing the relative intensity of an effort, you will be more relaxed, ok.
but i prefere to say that while contracting, you must not be in a crispation state.
best |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Your Thoughts On "Firmness" |
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| tim_wolf wrote: | I'd like to get some opinions of what, to me, seems like contradictory advice.
When the 1930's exercise thread made a comeback a little while back, I did some experimenting with trying to play as relaxed as possible. I found my tone and my endurance improved.
When confuses me, is what I read in Lucinda Lewis' book "Broken Embouchures," where she teaches that players should set up with firmness, and using a "less structured setup" can cause problems. Her view is that players that suffer from overuse syndrome get into trouble when they start playing with this less structured setup, and that this exasperates their embouchure issues. Doc Reinhardt also taught to use "almost buzzing firmness."
Phil Smith could be used as a great example of someone who, by his own admission, had way too much tension, and made great improvements by getting rid of this tension.
What doesn't work for me with playing relaxed is playing above the staff. Once the mouthpiece pressure starts to increase, well, it hurts! When I'm more firm, this doesn't happen, but then my endurance goes down and the tone isn't as good.
Sometimes I wish I could go back about 40 years, when all I did was put the mouthpiece on my lips and played. Yea, I know I should do that now, but there's just so much information in the brain that it's tough to not think about it. Sometimes knowledge isn't power. |
Since you are equating the issue with use of the 1930 exercise and I have been getting real good results with it I will comment. I think you might be equating firmness or a set with the area under the mouthpiece versus firmness and a set at the corners.
The firmness is never under the mouthpiece to me (as I t feels) but in the “corners” and those are never really relaxed but are more relaxed in the lower registers below the staff (for me below a). That was the revelation to me - that you don’t really control that area (no muscle) and when you try you just lose the natural vibration. Also mentioned in the explanation is that .the corners (as I understand corners they are the full muscular area surrounding the mouthpiece/ the explanation says near the eyeteeth and my experience that feels about right) are not at the outer edge of your lips but closer to the mouthpiece. These corners must be developed to be able to keep the area under the mouthpiece relaxed/semi flaccid. The muscles around the mp can be coordinated to breath effort and tongue level which allows for higher easier range. You probably know all this at least cognitively but for me I had to experience or feel the freedom you say you get in the staff before you start using pressure, to see how the other factors helped in the manner that had been described. It didn’t turn my playing around over nite but it did give me better sound right away, but it allowed me to step farther into understanding how it can all work together. I bought the mystery to mastery before finding this exercise and was getting some benefit from his great video demos, but the relaxed lip was eluding me, when I started the exercise all the Mysteryinfo lined up and some things are really taking off. It’s not a method, it’s just a way to unlock a feeling that most trumpet players never get to (just a guess from all the hi range and fundamental questions asked) that allows you to further explore the other three pillars tongue wind and chops (which to me doesn’t include under the mp anymore. I meditate and am very much a feel type learner so ymmv. After a month I can say this is making a huge difference in my playing, and the exercise brought about the elimination of a huge problem that I had no ideas how to solve despite reading thousands of pages on the subject.
Rod |
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BGinNJ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Since archery was invoked as a comparison, and it's also been a hobby of mine, I want to comment.
As disparate as it is from trumpet playing there is some commonality. While I'm not a great archer, I have had coaching from a couple of high level coaches. Like with trumpet playing, you have to eliminate excess muscle tension. People probably think your arms and hands do most of the work shooting a bow, right? Well really it's your rhombic back muscles. And your fingers on the string just act as "hooks", if you have too much tension there, it messes up the release.
The other thing is, while people differ, everybody needs consistent form. That is, you have to do it the same way each time.
And so it is with trumpet- if you place the mouthpiece differently each time, if your throat is tense, use different/too much pressure- well, you'll get hit-or-miss results. |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Your Thoughts On "Firmness" |
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| tim_wolf wrote: | | I read in Lucinda Lewis' book "Broken Embouchures," where she teaches that players should set up with firmness, and using a "less structured setup" can cause problems. |
Lewis wrote that in the context of players suffering from overuse syndrome, where the subconscious brain makes the lower part of their embouchure around the chin go weak and wobbly as a coping mechanism to prevent any further chop damage. It's a chin-flinch, sort of like how someone with a sprained ankle limps.
The problem with this coping mechanism is that some players can get stuck that way long after the chops have otherwise recovered. Now they're stuck with a chin-flinch and have a weak and wobbly chin that won't support normal playing like they were doing before their breakdown.
Her rehabilitation program involves exercises to force the chin muscles to engage with strength and firmness, which requires lots of determination to overcome the chin-flinch tendency. That's why Lewis makes a big deal about a firm embouchure: brass players struggling with a chin-flinch from overuse have to work really hard to restore normal firmness.
Now a normal trumpet player who doesn't have these problems can and should try to develop efficiency in their playing so they don't use more firmness and effort in their embouchure than is really necessary to play the intended notes at the intended dynamic level. Then it makes sense to think about relaxing the embouchure to play with sufficient but not excessive firmness.
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Relax does not mean collapse.
That is what Doc Reinhardt told me more than once.
When a huge, muscle-bound guy relaxes, he is still strong.
When a weakling with no muscle whatsoever relaxes, he collapses.
We have to be strong before we can relax before collapsing.
That has been my experience.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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It's not any one element, it's what has to happen with the totality of the elements. Lips - intrusion of the lips over the teeth, focus/balance of the muscles, teeth/jaw/opening/alignment, oral cavity, air support, mp pressure amount and distribution.
A good way to get a sense of what you're really doing when playing is to get a particular note solid and snatch the horn away without changing anything and see what's going on with all the above. It's also a demonstration of why I regard free buzzing as being at best useless - when you snatch the horn away you won't be buzzing the note you just played. Free-buzzing has -0- resemblance to what happens when you're actually playing.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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"As relaxed as possible" can be pretty firm if you're playing a fortissimo high C.
In my opinion, it's almost always wrongheaded to insist on either firmness or total relaxation at all times. The objective should be to have the correct amount and distribution of both.
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trumpet56
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Not too firm not too relaxed. To me it is the balance point between tension and relaxation where lies the optimum efficiency. Blow through the mouthpiece while inserting it into the receiver and let the resistance take care of the embouchure's firmness. |
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: |
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One other aspect of not being too loose I don't see mentioned yet: if you are too loose you can be moving the embouchure around too much between notes. The effort to change notes, while transitory, is more than the effort to sustain a note and you want to minimize the motion to minimize that effort. Firmness in the corners fixes position and adds tension, and means smaller changes elsewhere are needed to go from one note to another. This also helps guide how much tension is needed -- if things are not moving much between notes, ease off a bit and if things still don't move much you have found a better spot of less work for similar gain.
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roynj
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Your Thoughts On "Firmness" |
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| tim_wolf wrote: | I'd like to get some opinions of what, to me, seems like contradictory advice.
When the 1930's exercise thread made a comeback a little while back, I did some experimenting with trying to play as relaxed as possible. I found my tone and my endurance improved.
When confuses me, is what I read in Lucinda Lewis' book "Broken Embouchures," where she teaches that players should set up with firmness, and using a "less structured setup" can cause problems. Her view is that players that suffer from overuse syndrome get into trouble when they start playing with this less structured setup, and that this exasperates their embouchure issues. Doc Reinhardt also taught to use "almost buzzing firmness."
Phil Smith could be used as a great example of someone who, by his own admission, had way too much tension, and made great improvements by getting rid of this tension.
What doesn't work for me with playing relaxed is playing above the staff. Once the mouthpiece pressure starts to increase, well, it hurts! When I'm more firm, this doesn't happen, but then my endurance goes down and the tone isn't as good.
Sometimes I wish I could go back about 40 years, when all I did was put the mouthpiece on my lips and played. Yea, I know I should do that now, but there's just so much information in the brain that it's tough to not think about it. Sometimes knowledge isn't power. |
The concept of firmness is quite different than "tension" in your embouchure. When playing up high there is a need to have some firmness so that pressure will not cause your lips to be too compressed and thereby block blood flow, and losing endurance. If you have a copy of Clarke technical studies, you would do well to practice Study 1 and 2, but only up to C in the staff, none higher, dynamics as written. Rest as much as you play after each line. When practicing, the play-rest-play-rest cycle is very important. It is not intended to be play-play-play-play-rest (a little). You will find that Clarke's advice to "contract the lips slightly when ascending and relax in descending" is the same as adding firmness when ascending. |
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: |
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This is a really interesting discussion. I haven’t read the Lucinda Lewis book, so I appreciated the brief overview that dstdenis provided and better understand that perspective now. And Rich’s feedback from Doc Reinhardt is excellent.
When I read the ideas in this topic though, it seems very qualitative, and at what point does the pursuit of strength turn into tension. This is why insights from instructors are so important to help quantify what kind of strength is needed and how it should be developed. I attended a masterclass with Mark Inouye in 2014 at Arizona State University and he provided a great teaching moment related to this topic.
| Quote: | This group had a true individual teaching moment that was very powerful, and very unexpected. I am not familiar with the Hary Janos excerpt that they were playing, but the first trumpet part had a line that ascended, and then had a large slurred interval to a lower pitch that then resolved to the root. One of the players cracked this slurred interval a couple of times and Mark paused and asked him to try a few different things. He said that he was missing the lower pitch because he was too tight, and he needed to hear the line more clearly. Then he used a tool that I have in my tool belt, but have never considered to use in the way that he suggested. For the sake of example, let's say the line ascended to A above the staff, slurred to B natural in the middle of the staff and then resolved to 3rd space C (if someone reading this can add the specific line that would be helpful).
Mark played the line and said, not only was the lower note uncentered, it was almost the next half step higher, and that was due to tightness and why it was being cracked. He said, “Try this” and played from the A down to the B natural, but fingered the B natural “open – all valves up”. This requires both strength and flexibility, but most importantly requires that you are hearing the B natural very clearly. He did this a couple of times and asked the player on stage to try it. Each time the student tried, he found it very difficult to play the B natural open (he was simply too tight). Mark then commented that he liked to play scales in this way, for instance a B major scale, but fingered using C major fingerings for each of the notes and commented that he thought this was in one Dave’s books. While I think he is right (Possibly Trumpet Lessons with David Hickman), I know this set of exercises from the book "Special Studies from Trumpet" by John Daniel (exercise 3 in the Strength Section). I’ve worked out of this book going on about a year now, and this tool is clearly in my belt, but to apply it in this way is something that I have never considered! What great troubleshooting! I will keep this in mind and hope I can retrieve this when I have an issue with tightness (I know this can get to the heart of the matter immediately). |
I’m sure there are many ways obtain the relaxed strength that Mark demonstrated in the masterclass, but I really like the way that John Daniel pairs several exercises together from his book “Special Studies for Trumpet” to quantify an approach that gets lasting results in a very well laid out progression. His use of “flexibility” exercises incorporate note bends, and his take on strength exercises turns the note bend around and makes use of the flexibility that has been developed to cultivate this relaxed strength.
This post and this post are a great description of why I like the John Daniel exercises. And the video several posts down shows John demonstrating his strength exercises. I highly recommend his book and have found this relaxed strength is now a part of my playing!
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tim_wolf
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks everyone! I haven't been able to read this thread for a few days, and am glad to see so many fantastic suggestions. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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This is a great example of how reading about how to play the trumpet causes a lot of confusion. Get a competent teacher to help you sort it out.
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Pops
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Our tension is variable based on range and volume.
The way we drive the playing system also is a factor.
I anchor tongue and use very little tension for 2 octaves. Others actively contract facial muscles for every note and their tension level is much higher.
Then we have a difference of which muscles to contract when we play.
Many players use the cheek muscles which are the muscles that cause us to smile. Players who use the frown exclusively always have better range and endurance because of how the frown creates both corner firmness and lip compression.
Excess tension like excess mouthpiece pressure dramatically shorten endurance and lower range.
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| there's a good mental image to keep in mind during practice, engaging your frown. not bad. |
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rufflicks
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Flexing arms and shoulders tends to make us grunt. Grunting closes the throat. Working hard to push air against a closed throat is not so good. Squeezing the lips together tightly creates unnecessary tension and requires greater amounts of air to blow them open to create a buzz. Over flexing the corners of our mouth is problematic. Too much tension simply causes issues. Firm is not tight or tense it is firm. Firm is not hard or non pliable.
For me the corners only need to be firm enough to make a seal. In the cup my lips remain supple and free to vibrate. Upper body tension is a foe I defeat by concentrating on energizing the air in my body with my mid section and to some degree my back. If tension is regulated in my core there is little needed for it to exist elsewhere.
Best, Jon
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Bflatman
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have not been playing long just a couple of years, but I have been told that I play like I have been playing for 30 years.
I credit my rapid success with not analysing anything. For me trumpet playing is simple just blow.
Bob Hope in the movie Paleface was in a gunfight and on the way to it he was given lots of advice:-
He draws to the left so lean to the right. There's a wind from the east - better aim to the west. He crouches when he shoots so stand on your toes.
The poor guy ended up unable to walk there was so much analysis going on in his head.
Stop analysing start playing you develop much faster and your brain wont explode. |
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