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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: lip compression Reply with quote

i wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.
what works, at least at the start of the upper register where i am now, is having the strength in the lips and good control of the aperture. being strong allows that zen feeling of moving air without apparent strain.
i get the strength with lots of slurring work, and with isometric squeezing on the warburton PETE device. less avid consumers use a pencil.
there is more to the physical approach to the upper register than lip strength, but lip strength is my basic tool for getting there.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: lip compression Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
good control of the aperture

I'm curious what you mean by that.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chuck, I think it's about having the strength in the correct muscles only and having all the other muscles very relaxed. Have you checked out Pops thermal imaging study? He shows that, in pro players with great chops, only the muscles right around the lips are activated and all the other muscles are relaxed. In amateur players who have limited range of motion, you see the muscles all over the face working. The way Pops prescribes the pencil exercise is one way to strengthen only the correct muscles.

Have you experimented with the Cat Anderson middle G for 20 minutes with the teeth closed? This requires a lot of relaxation of the facial muscles to get a sound out, while, again, strengthening only the correct muscles. If you are into Lynn Nicholson's concepts, this also can enforce his unfurling concept. It's hard to roll in your chops and great a 'tension set' with your teeth closed. Over the last several months I have experimented with different volume levels for Cat's exercise, from the super-quiet whisper you hear on youtube demos, to a forte volume. By far, I get the most benefit from a comfortable p-mp volume while doing this exercise.

When all the right muscles in your embouchure are relaxed, and assuming you are using the right equipment for the type of playing you're doing, you should find that 'zen approach' working where you just feel the 'core' muscles engaging as you play higher and louder and you're not thinking about the face..it just feels totally relaxed and that you have a very comfortable 'grip' on the mouthpiece with the chops. I also think that Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine enforces this 'grip' with the mouthpiece on the embouchure. Like you could play all day/night and the chops won't get tired. Of course we want the physical body to tire before the chops! All the very best, Lex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: lip compression Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
i wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.
what works, at least at the start of the upper register where i am now, is having the strength in the lips and good control of the aperture. being strong allows that zen feeling of moving air without apparent strain.
i get the strength with lots of slurring work, and with isometric squeezing on the warburton PETE device. less avid consumers use a pencil.
there is more to the physical approach to the upper register than lip strength, but lip strength is my basic tool for getting there.


Playing in the upper register has essentially nothing to do with strength. It has to do with setting up the chops in such a manner that air works for you, not against you. Judging by your post, it sounds like your lips are either in a neutral position, or rolled out to a certain degree, which causes the aperture to widen whenever you add air due to the PSI exerted on the lips. You are losing compression, so you have to rely on practicing and physical strength to counteract it and maintain any upper register proficiency you may currently have.

Essentially, your embouchure is doing the opposite of what it should be doing, and you're stuck spending time and energy making up for it.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: lip compression Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
good control of the aperture

I'm curious what you mean by that.


not trying to mystify anything. i am referring to being able to subtly contract the aperture to ascend.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ljazztrm"]Hey Chuck, I think it's about having the strength in the correct muscles only and having all the other muscles very relaxed. Have you checked out Pops thermal imaging study? He shows that, in pro players with great chops, only the muscles right around the lips are activated and all the other muscles are relaxed. In amateur players who have limited range of motion, you see the muscles all over the face working. The way Pops prescribes the pencil exercise is one way to strengthen only the correct muscles.

Have you experimented with the Cat Anderson middle G for 20 minutes with the teeth closed? This requires a lot of relaxation of the facial muscles to get a sound out, while, again, strengthening only the correct muscles. If you are into Lynn Nicholson's concepts, this also can enforce his unfurling concept. It's hard to roll in your chops and great a 'tension set' with your teeth closed. Over the last several months I have experimented with different volume levels for Cat's exercise, from the super-quiet whisper you hear on youtube demos, to a forte volume. By far, I get the most benefit from a comfortable p-mp volume while doing this exercise.

When all the right muscles in your embouchure are relaxed, and assuming you are using the right equipment for the type of playing you're doing, you should find that 'zen approach' working where you just feel the 'core' muscles engaging as you play higher and louder and you're not thinking about the face..it just feels totally relaxed and that you have a very comfortable 'grip' on the mouthpiece with the chops. I also think that Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine enforces this 'grip' with the mouthpiece on the embouchure. Like you could play all day/night and the chops won't get tired. Of course we want the physical body to tire before the chops! All the very best, Lex[/quot

lex i did the cat anderson exercises for half a year. the experience convinced me to bring the jaw forward when playing to where the teeth line up where previously i played from a relaxed overbite position. it was a great and important thing. any further anderson teaching i left alone.
i am still working on relaxing the face and have gotten into the lip grip on the mouthpiece. no question i could use more lessons.
it's coming albeit slowly and is good enough for the while.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey chuck, cool deal man. I know some players recommend 'even-ing up the teeth' when they do the Cat G, but I keep my teeth in the normal bite position (I have a slight overbite). Perhaps if you have a large overbite, even-ing up the teeth would be helpful. Sounds like it helped you.

You might dig that Belknap Schlossberg routine! Pretty killer for establishing that comfortable 'grip' feel on the chops with the mouthpiece. It never feels like I am ever using any type of excessive pressure when I play. I think it's because of what Reinhardt talks about - The forward pressure coming from the relaxed chops and air, equalizes the back pressure from the horn. All the very best, Lex
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
I know some players recommend 'even-ing up the teeth' when they do the Cat G, but I keep my teeth in the normal bite position (I have a slight overbite).


I don't think I have much of an overbite, but I find that aspect of the Cat '20 minute' G exercise very challenging. I don't think I've tried something that feels more unnatural on the horn.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: lip compression Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
i wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.
what works, at least at the start of the upper register where i am now, is having the strength in the lips and good control of the aperture. being strong allows that zen feeling of moving air without apparent strain.
i get the strength with lots of slurring work, and with isometric squeezing on the warburton PETE device. less avid consumers use a pencil.
there is more to the physical approach to the upper register than lip strength, but lip strength is my basic tool for getting there.


Playing in the upper register has essentially nothing to do with strength. It has to do with setting up the chops in such a manner that air works for you, not against you. Judging by your post, it sounds like your lips are either in a neutral position, or rolled out to a certain degree, which causes the aperture to widen whenever you add air due to the PSI exerted on the lips. You are losing compression, so you have to rely on practicing and physical strength to counteract it and maintain any upper register proficiency you may currently have.

Essentially, your embouchure is doing the opposite of what it should be doing, and you're stuck spending time and energy making up for it.


drew

whatever problems i have or may be getting into playing from a roll out position pale compared to the problems i had playing from a more rolled in position. clint mcglaughlin had me make this change along with keeping the lips forward from the teeth and having more lip intrusion into the mouthpiece.
i am now in a position where progress is happening and can't do both lip positions only one or the other. it is a cogent discussion as you have players very successful with different lip sets. it is always good to hear the other side of the issue.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. A rolled out position where the buzz is more in the fleshy middle
part of the lips is not the same as an open or spread embouchure. Both Pops and Lynn Nicholson teach playing this way and it works well in the upper range.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
don't think I have much of an overbite, but I find that aspect of the Cat '20 minute' G exercise very challenging. I don't think I've tried something that feels more unnatural on the horn.


Are you trying to 'even-up' your teeth? Or are you just closing your teeth in your normal bite position? I find that, more often that not, players who try to consciously modify their jaw position wind up developing some embouchure problems. There are some who benefit, like our friend Chuck, but I think they are in the minority. It could be that, if one has a larger overbite it may be helpful. If what you're doing feels really unnatural to you, it's probably not a helpful thing to be doing for your playing.

The 2 biggest things I find from doing the Cat G with my teeth closed in my normal bite position, and at a comfortable p-mp volume, is that is forces me to relax all the facial muscles that are not important to trumpet playing that may get tense and inhibit efficient playing, and, also, I feel this exercises enforces an unfurled position that Lynn Nicholson talks about, because it's hard to roll in your chops with your teeth closed. All the best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yep. A rolled out position where the buzz is more in the fleshy middle
part of the lips is not the same as an open or spread embouchure. Both Pops and Lynn Nicholson teach playing this way and it works well in the upper range.

+1!!
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Yep. A rolled out position where the buzz is more in the fleshy middle part of the lips is not the same as an open or spread embouchure. Both Pops and Lynn Nicholson teach playing this way and it works well in the upper range.


I'm not arguing against the fact that it *can* work, because there are some cats who really can play up there with a rolled-out chop setting.

But at the same time, look at how hard Lynn is physically working when he plays up there. Granted, he's a living legend and he sounds amazing...but he looks like he's deadlifting 400 lbs.

I'm speculating now, but compare that to Jim Manley, or Scott Englebright, who each appear to play with a much less rolled-out setup. They require much less air, much less compression, and much less physical effort to get the same net result.

As someone who made the transition from rolled-out to rolled-in (while still utilizing a Callet-inspired tongue position), I can attest to the fact that my upper register requires probably 50% the effort it used to require, and I picked up additional notes. It's because when the chops are rolled-in, the aperture actually gets smaller (smaller = higher) when air is added, which is the opposite of what occurs with a rolled-out setup.

This brings a different set of issues, though. High notes are no longer the hard part...triple C's pop out with ease. The tough part is making everything else sound acceptable (i.e., the cash register).
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeff smiley and his balanced embouchure has yielded many players who achieve great high registers using roll in. jeff does it with kids which is all the more impressive. there is not just one way to do this thing.
that approach is not for me. where i was going in a not very well articulated way with this subject is that there is a solid muscular support to my playing and that in building the muscular support the higher register becomes more accessible and easier. i would like a zen snap my fingers sudden revelation type of experience, am not going to get that, and am left with a weight lifting type of routine that works very well used with caution and moderation. it's the same idea as the weights i use for physical conditioning.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Yep. A rolled out position where the buzz is more in the fleshy middle part of the lips is not the same as an open or spread embouchure. Both Pops and Lynn Nicholson teach playing this way and it works well in the upper range.


I'm not arguing against the fact that it *can* work, because there are some cats who really can play up there with a rolled-out chop setting.

But at the same time, look at how hard Lynn is physically working when he plays up there. Granted, he's a living legend and he sounds amazing...but he looks like he's deadlifting 400 lbs.

I'm speculating now, but compare that to Jim Manley, or Scott Englebright, who each appear to play with a much less rolled-out setup. They require much less air, much less compression, and much less physical effort to get the same net result.

As someone who made the transition from rolled-out to rolled-in (while still utilizing a Callet-inspired tongue position), I can attest to the fact that my upper register requires probably 50% the effort it used to require, and I picked up additional notes. It's because when the chops are rolled-in, the aperture actually gets smaller (smaller = higher) when air is added, which is the opposite of what occurs with a rolled-out setup.

This brings a different set of issues, though. High notes are no longer the hard part...triple C's pop out with ease. The tough part is making everything else sound acceptable (i.e., the cash register).


I have transitioned the opposite way, from a thin rolled in sound to a big a full sound using as much of the aperture tunnel as I can. The inside portion of the lips is much more flexible and easier to vibrate than the part of the lips that vibrate when rolled in. Also, it takes much less air to play with the buzz in the aperture tunnel and the sound is much fuller.

That said, I suspect we are using different teminology and visualizations to describe the same physical action. When playing in the upper range, there is a lip setting where everything becomes easy. For me, that happens when I relax and roll out. For you, it sounds like that happens when you relax and roll in.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.


When you write "move the air" I assume you are referring to air flow. And "accelerate the air column" I assume you are referring to air pressure via blowing effort. Is that correct?

As for "emerge without effort", that will never be the case as effort is ALWAYS required. What is important is what you get for your effort, not seeking to eliminate the requirement of effort.

Effort of air exhalation varies with loudness primarily. Effort of embouchure varies with range.

Air effort can not be reduced below a certain level depending on the loudness of tone. THAT IS; air pressure is ALWAYS required to play, as is air flow. These vary with loudness but are always required, even with perfect efficiency.

Effort of embouchure can be continuously reduced with improvement but will also never be completely "effortless".

Most players, IMO, use too much embouchure effort due to excessive roll-out and insufficient roll-in. This in turn requires more air effort as well.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not arguing against the fact that it *can* work, because there are some cats who really can play up there with a rolled-out chop setting.

But at the same time, look at how hard Lynn is physically working when he plays up there. Granted, he's a living legend and he sounds amazing...but he looks like he's deadlifting 400 lbs.

I'm speculating now, but compare that to Jim Manley, or Scott Englebright, who each appear to play with a much less rolled-out setup. They require much less air, much less compression, and much less physical effort to get the same net result.

As someone who made the transition from rolled-out to rolled-in (while still utilizing a Callet-inspired tongue position), I can attest to the fact that my upper register requires probably 50% the effort it used to require, and I picked up additional notes. It's because when the chops are rolled-in, the aperture actually gets smaller (smaller = higher) when air is added, which is the opposite of what occurs with a rolled-out setup.

This brings a different set of issues, though. High notes are no longer the hard part...triple C's pop out with ease. The tough part is making everything else sound acceptable (i.e., the cash register).


Roll-in, roll-out.. I think part of this depends on the player's lip thickness and facial structure. I know that from doing the rim buzzing and Cat's 20 min G that I think my chops are more unfurled, but I never am consciously thinking about rolling in, or rolling out my chops. When I am playing loudly in the double C+ range, my core muscles are definitely activated. I am into powerlifting, so maybe it doesn't feel so hard to me because my core muscles are extra strong. And of course Lynn is in 'mega-shape' biking and hiking all over the canyons and mountains of Arizona in his Otomix pants..haha! But, anyway, this type of effort is so much easier to me than the tension I used to experience in my chops! Anyway, my point is that I am just doing certain exercises and not consciously focusing on how 'rolled in or out' I am.

Quote:
jeff smiley and his balanced embouchure has yielded many players who achieve great high registers using roll in. jeff does it with kids which is all the more impressive. there is not just one way to do this thing.
that approach is not for me. where i was going in a not very well articulated way with this subject is that there is a solid muscular support to my playing and that in building the muscular support the higher register becomes more accessible and easier. i would like a zen snap my fingers sudden revelation type of experience, am not going to get that, and am left with a weight lifting type of routine that works very well used with caution and moderation. it's the same idea as the weights i use for physical conditioning.


Chuck I wonder if Jeff would agree with you on this. I've been talking to a couple of players in my area who have really benefitted from 'The Balanced Embouchure' and we agree that the roll in/roll out exercises are to teach the lips a full range of motion, not necessarily to promote a more 'rolled in' set. It's been awhile since I checked out my Balanced Embouchure book so maybe I'm missing something - but it seems to me that Jeff's exercises are to get the lips moving freely and not 'pinned down'. Whether or not the player goes toward more rolled in, or rolled out, would depend on the player. At least that's always been my impression. All the best, Lex
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lex

i tried BE and quit fairly quickly at the roll in exercise so don't have a comprehensive view of the system.
playing around with rolling in the lips, you can find ways of producing higher notes, the scheme has its advantages and no doubt some aspects of blowing are going to become easier as drew was saying.
pops got me started with the roll out and got me out of a more pinched tone into fullness of sound. the high register is important- if you need it as you do for business- or if you don't need it but understand it's part of the physics of being a player- but having a characteristic and good sound defines us.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to keep in mind that roll-in and roll-out exist along a spectrum, and therefore, it would behoove us to not think of this as being binary.

I'm arguing that 90% of players who struggle in the upper register, and/or, require hours of practicing each week to maintain their upper register, would simply benefit from learning to incorporate MORE of a roll-in (ceteris paribus). I'm not advocating playing 100% rolled-in all time; it's just not feasible given that 90% of music is below high C. I'm simply saying that trumpet players who struggle above the stave, in my experience, tend to physically approach the instrument like it's a baritone (as opposed to a trumpet). I think this propensity comes from the innate belief that we need to "move" or "blow" air through the horn, which typically causes way more of the above mentioned problems than it solves...namely, blowing the chops open.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you write about rolling in, do you refer to both lips rolling in equally? Some players roll in the bottom lip while ascending, but don't roll in the top lip. Rawshawn Ross doesn't seem to roll in his bottom lip at all when he plays in the upper register. I'm not claiming that rolling in or out is the answer. It just seems like players seem to use both ways or a combination thereof successfully or non successfully.
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