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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a physics standpoint, rolling-in both lips creates something of a backwards valve (like on a vehicle tire), where the air is essentially trying to pass through the valve (aka, aperture) the "wrong" way, causing the valve to close tighter. Rolling in one lip, top or bottom, probably works in a similar way but to a lesser degree (i.e., less compression).

Personally, I've found a lot of success rolling in both lips, and combining that with a Callet-like tongue position (tongue resting against both lips and applying physical leverage to the aperture as the lips attempt to roll-in against the tongue). It's like adding a turbocharger to a V8.


Last edited by deleted_user_fdb91a0 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm simply saying that trumpet players who struggle above the stave, in my experience, tend to physically approach the instrument like it's a baritone (as opposed to a trumpet). I think this propensity comes from the innate belief that we need to "move" or "blow" air through the horn, which typically causes way more of the above mentioned problems than it solves...namely, blowing the chops open.


Great point Drew. Donald Reinhardt talked about this a lot. How too many players approach from the 'bottom up'. Pops talks about this as well, and how to establish a 'lip set point'. All the rim buzzing that Lynn prescribes is to be done above high C. Also, he demonstrates how the extreme upper register is about air speed and not air mass. And the tongue position he demonstrates is just like Pops' drawing of tongue levels. I find the way I practice the Cat Anderson 'G' definitely also enforces the concept of air speed and not blowing the chops open.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you write about rolling in, do you refer to both lips rolling in equally? Some players roll in the bottom lip while ascending, but don't roll in the top lip. Rawshawn Ross doesn't seem to roll in his bottom lip at all when he plays in the upper register. I'm not claiming that rolling in or out is the answer. It just seems like players seem to use both ways or a combination thereof successfully or non successfully.


What you write reminds me of Walt Johnson's approach in "Double High C in Ten Minutes'. He advocates a lower lip roll when ascending into the extreme high register and calls this a 'high gear' embouchure.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience with players getting the Balanced Embouchure book, is that players who are sincere about making progress, but who have doubts or questions about it, simply contact me. I give support for free, and have done so from the very beginning.

Those players who try BE briefly, and quickly dismiss it without even contacting me, obviously have a different agenda. For example, if you have been conditioned to believe that focusing on the lips is wrong - or even dangerous - then BE is probably not for you.

It does somewhat astound me that after 18 years, people here on the TH still make blanket either-or statements about BE that are wholly untrue.

BE is not a rigid or fixed embouchure setup. It is a set of lip (and tongue) range-of-motion exercises, designed to help you find the most efficient way to play. Every embouchure has a complex mixture of RI and RO lip motion, and BE addresses this head-on with no apologies.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Hey Chuck, I think it's about having the strength in the correct muscles only and having all the other muscles very relaxed.


This.

And not just the embouchure muscles - this applies to all the muscles of the body. When we reach the highest notes we can play we are blowing with nearly all our strength, with our highest note requiring our maximum air pressure capabilities. Most players start straining and tensing up the back of their tongues and their soft palates when trying to play their highest notes, (often severely) limiting how high they can play.

If a weight lifter grunts and strains while trying to lift a heavy weight over his head, it's not the right way to do it, but he'll likely still get that weight up (and perhaps suffer a hernia). But if a trumpet player grunts and strains while trying to play a high note, the air stream gets choked off and it's all over before it even began.

And there's also the issue of tensing up and contracting antagonal muscle groups. This applies to the both the muscles of inspiration and expiration, and the facial/embouchure muscles that oppose each other. If one overly tenses up and basically has muscle groups working against each other, not a lot of work gets accomplished.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I agree with you 100%. One ends up spending a lot of energy when one muscle group is fighting another. The muscles end up not being able to move, and all you got for your work ( and it feels like a lot of work) is isometric contraction.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, he demonstrates how the extreme upper register is about air speed and not air mass.


I think you mean air flow, not air mass.

ANY register is about using the embouchure to generate a particular frequency of sound AND quality of tone. Air "speed" exists but it varies with loudness once the embouchure is set for a particular note and the air flow that is required for that level of loudness. Air flow into the mouthpiece is required due to the energy requirement of the sound. You can NOT eliminate this requirement and then claim that air "speed" is a substitute for air flow. It simply is not.

As has been pointed out. The particular actions of the muscles around the embouchure are a combination of different ones which include all of the possible muscular manipulations available. The roll-in, roll- out are two general and somewhat opposing actions, but the control of the embouchure is not just one action but the correct combination of each, and usually in tiny amounts.

It is not a black-or-white issue. (not "either-or", as expressed by Jeff)

One can learn to play with ever-reduced amounts of ALL of these actions with a successful approach.

For example: If the roll in/out balance has insufficient roll-in action. The solution may be primarily less roll-out action with only a tiny amount of additional roll-in action. Not just purely the addition of roll-in effort.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John wrote:
Quote:
When we reach the highest notes we can play we are blowing with nearly all our strength, with our highest note requiring our maximum air pressure capabilities.


Incorrect assumption.

The blowing effort is not what limits your range. One can play quite high pitches using only a fraction of their blowing strength.

Strength required can limit the loudness as you ascend to very high pitches. There is a reason for this and it is not solved simply by gaining strength alone (which is itself a limited possibility).

If one can not produce tone on very high pitches, it is an embouchure skill issue. Not a blowing strength issue.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl, you sure know how to cut through the myths and inaccuracies of the physical actions required to play the trumpet. What's ironic is that having knowledge about what is necessary to make a trumpet work doesn't end up helping us in improving our playing. It would be like knowing what muscles need to be used in playing golf. Our game wouldn't improve in the slightest with this information.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing you don't have to blow your brains out to play high can let you focus on other things that do help...
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind, very little air is flowing through the horn, even when playing loudly in the upper register, when the embouchure is working efficiently.

Playing in the upper register is purely a function of the aperture vibrating at a high rate. The dilemma is how to best accomplish that, and most players resort to just blowing their brains out and using mouthpiece pressure to compensate for an aperture that just won't stay together as air pressure increases behind the lips.

This is the basis for my support of using a rolled-in setup for playing up there, because the increase in air pressure actually keeps the aperture together and reduces its size, leading to higher notes. It also gets more tissue involved (think aperture tunnel), and keeps the sensitive red tissue of the lips away from the rim of the mouthpiece, leading to less fatigue and swelling. This allows and even demands that the player use less mouthpiece pressure and less air pressure, because the lips are providing so much compression via roll-in that the addition of excessive external forces will shut the sound off completely. In other words, there's already more than enough static, at-rest compression available when you approach the horn like this. Beats the hell out of trying to move lots of atmosphere.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Keep in mind, very little air is flowing through the horn, even when playing loudly in the upper register, when the embouchure is working efficiently.


There is little difference in the air flow required for lower notes at a similar loudness.

Efficiency of embouchure does not eliminate the need for air flow or air pressure.

The best path to efficiency is to develop the tone such that the air pressure is working on the sound, not fighting through an overly "flow-resistive" embouchure.

In my opinion the outer (less red/fleshy) tissue has naturally more "firmness". This natural elasticity or "firmness" does not require much muscular action to sit at the point of vibration. I feel I can play from pedal up to about middle C with a very small range of muscular action.

The "firmer" lip tissue also does not need to be excessively small in aperture size (by lip aperture effort) to produce a higher frequency. I feel I get more for my embouchure efforts, thereby increasing endurance.

All apertures are in effect a bit of a "tunnel". But if the tunnel is excessively long it adds to the self-resistance of the aperture, thereby reducing efficiency.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is little difference in the air flow required for lower notes at a similar loudness..


Hi Darryl,

I'm only quoting the above from your post because I have no quarrel with the rest of what you wrote. Do you really believe there is little difference in the air flow required for lower notes compared to higher notes at similar volume?

It has been my experience, and I think the experience of pretty much everybody that a low note requires much more air flow than a similar volume high note. I run out of air much quicker when playing a loud Low C than when playing a loud High C (with the same decibel level as shown from the app on my iPhone).

If I recall, Arnold Jacobs talked about this in his book and lectures.

Or maybe when you write "air flow" you are meaning something different than what I am interpreting. I think of air flow as meaning the amount of air (mass of air) over a particular period of time.

Best wishes,

John
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I run out of air much quicker when playing a loud Low C than when playing a loud High C (with the same decibel level as shown from the app on my iPhone).


You are not running out of air quicker. Since the higher pitch requires more air pressure, you are reaching the point of insufficient air pressure sooner in the breath cycle.

If you drop to the low C when your air seems to run low on your high C you will notice that you can continue to play the low C just as long as if you had played it alone. Since the flow is roughly the same for each.

I am indeed referring to air flow. Air flow = air volume / time.

Perception is not always reality.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl, let's say for argument's sake that you are correct. I say this because I play 2nd trumpet in a symphony, and always run out of air before the lst trumpet if we are playing loud octaves. Maybe as you say it's my perception. But if I don't breathe, my perception that I'm running out of air will become reality. This feeling is distracting, so I breathe and the feeling goes away. Even if you are right, I will still feel like I'm running out of air before my colleague is, even if you imply that am not.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You missed my point. I believe that you do have a perception of running out of air. And for the particular air pressure required, you ARE running out of air. But comparing yourself to another player may be misleading since you may not be playing at the same loudness, efficiency, etc. You may have different strength levels, vital capacity, breathing habits, etc.

This perception is not however, proof that high pitches require less air flow than low notes. Which was the assertion.


Last edited by kalijah on Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air fow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I run out of air much quicker when playing a loud Low C than when playing a loud High C (with the same decibel level as shown from the app on my iPhone).


I did the same and noticed no significant difference. Certainly not enough difference to claim that higher pitches require "very little air".
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air flow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.


No, flow and quantity (volume) are proportional if you are considering a certain length of time.

There are differences in efficiency, impedance etc that may result in the flow required for a player to vary to some degree across the range.

My point is that air flow for the high pitches are NOT a tiny fraction of the air flow required for lower notes as some claim.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
Keep in mind, very little air is flowing through the horn, even when playing loudly in the upper register, when the embouchure is working efficiently.

Playing in the upper register is purely a function of the aperture vibrating at a high rate. The dilemma is how to best accomplish that, and most players resort to just blowing their brains out and using mouthpiece pressure to compensate for an aperture that just won't stay together as air pressure increases behind the lips.

This is the basis for my support of using a rolled-in setup for playing up there, because the increase in air pressure actually keeps the aperture together and reduces its size, leading to higher notes. It also gets more tissue involved (think aperture tunnel), and keeps the sensitive red tissue of the lips away from the rim of the mouthpiece, leading to less fatigue and swelling. This allows and even demands that the player use less mouthpiece pressure and less air pressure, because the lips are providing so much compression via roll-in that the addition of excessive external forces will shut the sound off completely. In other words, there's already more than enough static, at-rest compression available when you approach the horn like this. Beats the hell out of trying to move lots of atmosphere.


I find that a rolled in setting provides too much resistance and requires me to use much more air pressure than when I am more rolled out and letting the soft fleshy part of the lips vibrate—which vibrates more easily than the stiffer part.

That said, I had to develop for a while before I could relax and roll out. I first had to roll in to play above High C. Now I need to be more rolled out to play DHC. When I try to play it more rolled the sound is thin. When more rolled out the sound is bigger and it takes less effort.

So I would propose that the amount of roll-in/roll out varies with our level of development. And still, we really don’t know how what I call being rolled out and in the aperture tunnel compares with what you call your being rolled in.

And it really isn’t important. We each need to find our own visualizations that allow us to play optimally, even if they don’t meet Darryl’s strict ideas on what is correct physically..........
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Last edited by INTJ on Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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