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La Mer inserts


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azinatelli
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Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: La Mer inserts Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

Does anyone know the origins of the added notes that are sometimes played in La Mer? What parts should they be in? It looks to me as if the insert from the 4th bar of 59 to 60 should be in trumpets 1 and 2 (in some recordings it also sounds like two horns an octave lower). More puzzling to me is the insert for the first four bars of 63, the quarter-note triplets. What parts should those be in?

For reference, one or both of these are played in these recordings, among others: Berlin - Karajan, Chicago - Barenboim, Cleveland - Ashkenazy, Concertgebouw - Jansons, Orchestre National de France - Svetlanov.

Thanks for your help,
Adam
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Carusofiedagain
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The horns and trumpets are playing them. The first two trumpets have played them when I have performed it. I would just write out what you hear and give it to the horns an octave lower if you can't get the actual inserts.
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know the origin of these parts too. Are they in the original score. If not, who added them?

Thanks
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robert_white
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like they came from Debussy - he just decided later to take them out.

More info (with endnotes) here:
here
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mcgowanm
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played this last week and the conductor came at me with these inserts and said, "Debussy wrote this and then took them out." I said, "then why are we playing them?" He just gave me a dirty look and walked away.........oh conductors..........
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mcgowanm
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess, as always, conductors are just trying to play the prima donna card!!
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johntpt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These inserts can also be heard on the Chicago Symphony recording conducted by Reiner, plus both of Solti's CSO recordings, and also on the DVD with Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra.

JU
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Wildman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgowanm wrote:
I guess, as always, conductors are just trying to play the prima donna card!!


You got that right!
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Trompeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic, from the Digital Concert Hall (2009):



Link
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Trompeter! An excellent rendition of the sea. Long time, no play Debussy in our orch. I guess it's not very deep in our guy's repertoire. We did the Nocturnes and La Mer perhaps 15 years back but nothing Impressionistic lately. We, and the audience are the ones who are the losers here.

Pardon my ignorance, but exactly what are those bleachers up behind the orchestra and who sits there? Years back when I lived(?) in Colorado, the then Denver Symphony played "in the round" but even as a player I was never impressed with sitting behind the orch- plus I had to watch the conductor from there...
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Phil Collins
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrific performance! But if you're in a hurry, the licks in question are at about 1 minute, 52 seconds in. Notice the perfect use of air these guys use! They blow those five notes like one big note. Listen and remember.
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kanstulpicc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The doubled solo lick was played by Martin Kretzer and
Gabor Tarkövi.

What a fine orchestra.

The Philharmonie in Berlin is designed so that the orchestra is
"in the midst" of the audience; perhaps Mr. Clean can fill us in
on how he likes the similar design of the seating in Disney Hall.

In San Francisco, the seats used by the Symphony Chorus (a choir loft,
of sorts) are sold to the public for shows in which the Chorus is not
performing (which is most shows). I think they are the best seats
in the house for me.
* Cheapest ($15)
* Bench style, so my body is not wedged into the airline seating
of the rest of the hall
* Good views of the musicians and the conductor. The closest I will get
to playing in such a group, I suppose.
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trombasolo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: La Mer trumpet inserts Reply with quote

Hi all,

I heard this explanation directly from Michel Cuvit - who was principal trumpet of the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande under Ernest Ansermet. I was Principal Trumpet of that orchestra from 1977 to 2008. Whenever I played La Mer with them (which was dozens of times), we used parts from the Ansermet days. Ansermet was a personal friend of Debussy. We always played the inserts. The story is that when Harry James' version of Ciri Biri Bin became popular, and it was a world-wide hit, Debussy took those parts out of the trumpet part because there was always snickering and laughing in the public when they heard it since they associated it with Ciri Biri Bin.

Like a lot of stories, this may or may not be true, but I believe it could certainly be possible.

Cheers,
Dennis Ferry
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for having this discussion. I have always wondered about these brass "fanfares" as well.

Last edited by alexwill on Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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stevesf
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always prefered La Mer with the inserts in. It just sounds empty without them.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: La Mer trumpet inserts Reply with quote

trombasolo wrote:
The story is that when Harry James' version of Ciri Biri Bin became popular, and it was a world-wide hit, Debussy took those parts out of the trumpet part because there was always snickering and laughing in the public when they heard it since they associated it with Ciri Biri Bin.

Like a lot of stories, this may or may not be true, but I believe it could certainly be possible.

Cheers,
Dennis Ferry


It would seem a lot more convincing (to me) if the inserts sounded more like Ciri Biri Bin. Even after reading the above and listening to it again with this in mind, I just didn't make the connection. /shrug
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wlmstroz
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Debussy Inserts Reply with quote

My recollection is this:

Debussy composed this for the Pri Di Rome (sp?) competition. Originally, the score included those trumpet parts. When he sent the manuscript to friends (Monteux I think) he suggested that they be removed. He won the competition and that version has been published ever since. Eventually, Debussy (or Monteux) wanted to perform the work with the original trumpet parts, so the "passed-around" copies were born.
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lmaraya
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played La Mer couple time without the "inserts" but it sounds cool!!! could someone post a jpg of those so that next time the opportunity shown I could be I able to play them?
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George Coble
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I last performed the 1st cornet part of Debussy's La Mer during the televised 1992 150th Anniversary performance of the NYPhil on December 7, 1992 with Pierre Boulez conducting. John Ware was performing the 2nd C cornet part. I asked John where those unique "fanfare" parts originated. He indicated that these notes were the inspiration of Arturo Toscanini and were either written by him or by his librarian. What most orchestral trumpeters know is that these "non Debussy" fanfare parts for the cornets appear on the last page of the finale. Very few trumpeters know that there are also added "Toscanini notes" at the end of the 1st movement. And, I agree that without these notes, La Mer simply does not sound right......
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tubbs831
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: La Mer Reply with quote

Mr. Coble,

I actually have an old VHS copy of that PBS broadcast. You guys sound great!, but I do agree the lack of inserts does seem to leave a bit to be desired. It seems Boulez is not a fan as they are not on his recording with Cleveland either.

Adam
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