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Vintage Bach Collection! Show and Tell!



 
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CRoberts8
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Vintage Bach Collection! Show and Tell! Reply with quote

Some of the posters here might take an interest in seeing these horns, so I thought I would share. In my collection is a NY Bach flugelhorn, C trumpet, D trumpet, Eb trumpet, F trumpet and G trumpet made between 1946 and 1951. If anybody has any questions about my instruments I am happy to chat, and if anybody is in the vicinity of Rochester, NY and would like to try any or all of them, you are welcome to stop by.

If you have a horn that you do not see here I would love to see some photos of your horn, and if for sale I will probably love to provide a new home for your horn if it is something I do not have. If you have a lead on a NY Bach C trumpet of any configuration for sale or any Mt. Vernon C trumpets, I would really appreciate the referral, especially NY 211 bell, NY 229 bell, or Mt. Vernon 229 bell instruments

Please take the opportunity to post some photos of your vintage Bach instruments, and any stories behind them. This is a "show and tell" thread after all!

Here is a link to higher resolution photos: http://s971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/croberts89/NY%20Bach%20collection




This flugelhorn (SN 9xxx) model 158 was built in 1951. It has the cornet style wrap similar to the Elkhart model 182 flugelhorn. This horn is built off of a ML trumpet valve block and what looks to be a Bb trumpet style leadpipe and slide. A Mt. Vernon flugelhorn (model 165 bell) I recently owned had the same wrap, but there were many small differences with the horns side by side. This type of flugelhorn was a "work in progress" for its entire existence. As somebody who plays occasional shows and big band gigs, it is nice to have a compact flugelhorn that will fit in standard gig bags. If anybody happens to own a NY or Mt. Vernon flugelhorn mouthpiece, I would like to have one to match this horn.




This is C trumpet (SN 7xxx) model 229* with ML bore and a 7 leadpipe built in 1947. This horn was originally built with a 227 bell and the NY 229* bell was added at some point later in the NY period. It was also originally a lacquer horn, and is now silver plated. This horn also originally had 1st slide stop mechanism like the D trumpet, I have the mechanism but it was removed before I owned the horn. I would absolutely love to own a large bore 229 from either the NY period or Mt. Vernon period. My horn plays GREAT, and I would love to have a large bore along with it. Help!!




This is D trumpet (SN 7xxx) model 211 with SM bore and a 7 leadpipe built in 1947. The above C trumpet likely looked very similar to this horn when it was originally built, they are within about 100 serial numbers of each other. The horn is a "SM" bore, and plays well in tune with either a large/orchestral mouthpiece with a 117 backbore, or a smaller "D" or "E" cup piccolo style mouthpiece.




This is Eb trumpet (SN 7xxx) model 308-33 with a .433 bore and a 305 leadpipe built in 1946. Note how different the color of the lacquer is from the D trumpet even though this horn is only about 500 serial numbers "younger". This trumpet actually plays extremely well and may become my main Eb trumpet. This horn has the older style braces, valves, and everything else compared to the D and Eb, I guess this horn was made from older parts while the C and D were made from newer post-war parts.




This is F trumpet (SN 7xxx) model 311 with a .401 bore and a 311 leadpipe built in 1946. This trumpet is 6 serial numbers away from the above Eb trumpet. It plays quite well in tune with some careful mouthpiece selection. This horn has bottom sprung valves.




This is G trumpet (SN 9xxx) model 312 with a .401 bore built in 1951. This horn has an added 1st valve saddle. This piccolo plays very, very well and is a nice choice in lieu of my Schilke P5-4 at times. This horn has bottom sprung valves and has a fixed second valve slide.




Now it's your turn! What have you got? Bach or otherwise?
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Charles Russell Roberts
Trumpet, Gaudete Brass Quintet
www.gaudetebrass.com


Last edited by CRoberts8 on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Bill Dishman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject: NY Bach Collection Reply with quote

Major Cool Charles!!!

I am really liking the Bach Strad Elkhart F piccolo.

The Bach Strad C cornet is a joy to play as well.

Best to you at Eastman.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida
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rockford
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the pictures. Great stuff!
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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cjl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee whiz, who else has a collection to compare to that??? Showoff!


By the way, how does your 308 Eb compare to the 304 that became the more common short-model? I know some hate the 304, but some liked them quite a bit, too.

-- Joe
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a terrific collection! Very interesting and fun.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful horns!
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CRoberts8
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjl wrote:
Gee whiz, who else has a collection to compare to that??? Showoff!


By the way, how does your 308 Eb compare to the 304 that became the more common short-model? I know some hate the 304, but some liked them quite a bit, too.

-- Joe


Thanks!! I am sure plenty of you guys have plenty of neat horns that should be shown off. I decided to make this thread so these horns would be SOMEWHERE online for people to look at.

I have played/owned a few Bach 304 models. A Mt. Vernon 304 and two Elkhart 304 models. Also, I briefly owned a 302 model D/C trumpet (serial number 362, Faciebat Anno 1931) which was built in a very similar way to these horns.

--- The Mt. Vernon was a prototype of sorts and has a very, very tight leadpipe on it and played much like a piccolo and had to be approached like a piccolo trumpet to work well.

--- The Elkhart 304 models are surprisingly well balanced between the "piccolo" and "big trumpet" style. They seem to be nice horns that can be picked up at surprisingly low prices when they show up on eBay. The current trend in Eb trumpets seems to be horns that play more like a C or Bb trumpet, which matches the trend of playing a lot of literature meant for the C or Bb on a higher horn.

--- This 308 model plays a bit on the "bigger" side compared to the Elkhart 304 with a very nice sound but still is a smaller Eb compared to...perhaps an E3L with a big bell on it, or a Bach 239/229 long model. It is a bit bigger than the other Bach short models I have played, actually the blow is very similar to the old Yamaha 761 short model, or the older Schilke short models. I like it, it is a great "Haydn" horn and it lights up in a lot of the right places of the register. The 308 model Eb is the most recent addition, it came in the mail literally yesterday morning so I have not had much time to evaluate it, regardless, it is a very nice horn that I will use quite often.


To everybody who has replied and read the thread: I am glad you enjoy taking a look at these horns. I have had and continue to have a lot of fun finding these instruments and getting to play them. In about 2 years of hunting I have found a lot of interesting horns and chatted with a lot of great people. If you have any questions about anything please send me a PM or email and I will do my best to help.
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Trumpet, Gaudete Brass Quintet
www.gaudetebrass.com
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CRoberts8
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I'd bump this - I am still looking for old Bach instruments, especially high pitched horns (in C, D, Eb, or otherwise). I know they are looking for certain instruments over at http://www.vincentbachsworld.com/

Thanks!
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RhodyBrass1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome collection!

I recently bought a Mount Vernon Bb off ebay. (I'll post pics when I figure out how) It is very late vintage (in the 30,000s). I had never seen one with such a late number from Mount Vernon....(As a matter of fact, I have very rarely seen one past 25XXX.)

Can anyone shed any light as to what went on during the last year or so Mount Vernon? Why does it seem that horns from 25,000- 30,000 very rarely show up compared to other vintages? Did Bach actually create horns to fill all of those serial numbers? Or did they do some "guesstimating" when they moved to Elkhart?

I've also heard old wives tales of workers from Getzen, Mount Vernon, and Elkhart getting their hands on mount vernon parts, and creating their own horns.... Any truth to these rumors?

Sorry for all the questions... I've just always been curious about the Vernon to Elkhart transition! Any information would be greatly appreciated!
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhodyBrass1 wrote:

Why does it seem that horns from 25,000- 30,000 very rarely show up compared to other vintages? Did Bach actually create horns to fill all of those serial numbers?
The last completed Mt. Vernon trumpet was 26,552. From then until 26,726 the cards are marked "not finished". Most of these valve sections were made into complete trumpets at some point. Elkhart production started at 30,000 so there is a gap between 26,727-29,999. My best guess is that there are many instruments that share Elkhart and Mt.Vernon labeled parts depending what was available at the time. I doubt they would have junked parts simply because of the labeling. Also, a common source of confusion are Mt. Vernon Mercury models and a few Minerva's with serial numbers in the 30K+range. These were outsourced valve sections and are unrelated to the serial number time frame that we're familiar with.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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RhodyBrass1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill, thank you for your reply! Although I have not often posted on the herald, I frequently visit and read this site, and have always enjoyed your posts!
The trumpet I recently acquired is SN 3000X. It appears to have all original Mount Vernon Stradivarius parts, including valve cluster, braces, and bell. What would your best guess be as to its origin? Just a bunch of parts that made it over to Elkhart?
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhodyBrass1 wrote:

The trumpet I recently acquired is SN 3000X. It appears to have all original Mount Vernon Stradivarius parts, including valve cluster, braces, and bell. What would your best guess be as to its origin? Just a bunch of parts that made it over to Elkhart?
That would be my best guess but it's only based off of my imagination of how things might have been. Some ideas- Production starts at Elkhart and a few days later some more parts arrive from Mt. Vernon. Maybe a bell or two? Maybe a moving box is opened up a few weeks later and some valve sections, bells or lead pipes are there? Maybe some parts are sold off (or squirreled away?) and a third party assembles them into a complete trumpet? Could be any of a number of reasonable scenarios. Assuming you have the original bell it was probably assembled in Elkhart from unfinished Mt. Vernon parts.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my early Elkhart era Bach Stradivarius ML 37 with a custom Firemanboot-tempered Bell:











Please don't click on any of the images - the carnage is just too graphic when viewed full size.

This was my first pro-quality trumpet, bought from me by my Grandma Mary in 1975. I had thought I had traded this trumpet on one of my other horns I bought before moving to California in 1982. It turns out I hadn't. I had left it at my Mom's house in the vinyl Bach Gig bag I had bought before getting a proper Reunion Blues Leather Bag (remember those horrible Bach plastic gig bags?). It ended up being stored in my Mom's garage attic where it remained for years. An attic fire occurred sometime in the late 1980's. The horn didn't burn, but it seems apparent it got stepped on in the melee. A few years ago, when my Mom decided to move to Georgia upon retirement to be near my sister and her children, the horn got rediscovered as the house was being packed up.

It is now at Ron Pinc's house where it is an extremely long-term project. Your thoughts and prayers for a miraculous repair of the second valve casing threads would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very impressive collection you have there. I think my N+1 just went exponential.
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musicman0097
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful collection, Charles. My current C trumpet (serial #9569) was built sometime in the 50's, if my memory serves me right. I received it as a gift from my friend. It is a tunable bell and removable leadpipe contraption. It came with a Early Elkhart 238G (Beautiful sounding bell, by the way) and the original leadpipe. I could tell my looking at the serial number and at the bell that it was not the original bell. When I was in my friend's studio (From who I got the horn from) and I was playing on another one of his C trumpets, which had a tunable bell as well. And it had a NY 229 bell on it. I was shocked. I thought the original bell was long gone but I was relieved to see that it wasn't. I feel like tearing apart a NY Bach is one of the worst things to do. But in doing that, custom work on the horn, it helped intonation and response a lot. I've had some other bells (Bach Corp 229 and Bach Corp 239) In case I want to change the sound. He still has the original bell. And if somebody wanted, you could always solder it back on the way it was by a top line tech. Let me know if you would like some pics.

Best,
Matthew
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"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell
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fijimorgan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey CRoberts8,

I have a Bach NY Eb that I am selling. Here is the listing:https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=106480&s=Bach-NY-Eb-Trumpet

Please let me know if you or someone you know might be interested.

Thanks,

Mark
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