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chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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not completely relevant but i endeavor to give orders to support USA manufacture. i live here and it's appropriate.
i would hope to be enough of a player to be able to get something from an agreeable price outfit like getzen and use it for life without a second thought. the only pitfall is ordering the correct model and no amount of discussion will be definitive. you have to find someone who carries them and try them out.
the same could be said for kanstul and schilke.
half of the purchase decision is made based on agreeable blow and ease of getting around on the instrument. half is something you hear in the timbre that convinces you that you are going somewhere.
i am not surprised that the OP liked a lightweight monette trumpet as i always felt they should go that way. the same could be said of taylor and in ordering something would opt for a lite model. his lites aren't all that lite either. i don't relate to heavy horns and assume that those who play them are much more powerful players.
there is a big component of personal bias in horn selection. it's important to listen to your gut feelings and go with the brand that you are most attracted to. no discussion here can illuminate that and again it's about falling in love. |
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | I'm confused by blbaumgarn's poke at me.. I did not rant against all things anti Bach. I might have been a bit quick and snarky with my short statement ut the OP did leave the door wide open for comments -> no background, no frame of reference, and wasn't even sure whether we were talking about trumpets or mouthieces. I haven't seen the OP show up again either...?
Yes, I am a Bach Endosing Artist, but that came to me after many years of performing and finding by comparison that I prefer Bach's, for me they stand up against and out perform many others.
To clear up any doubt, of the 3 mentioned I prefer Bach trumpets (not mouthpoieces)..
Bach- tone, how it stays together in the room/hall, how I sound playing a Bach (especially on recordings), flexibility and playability. I highly encourage you to try a new 19037.
Yamaha - I have played several models over many years - just never got comfortable with the sound.. feedback on stage, in halls, and on recordings. The proof in the pudding for me was that each time I swapped from a Yamaha to a Bach, I always received unpromted compliments from my colleagues
Monettes - play wonderfully, BUT sound so unique that they often don't blend with others and aren't as flexible from one genre to another. Wynton is awesome on his, but he doesn't play in a trumpet section so can sound any old way he likes-plus I'm sure he sounds fantastic on anything he picks up. Big bucks too!
Blackburn - the best trumpet I've ever played, expensive. The one I owned was big and legit... unwieldly for what I moslty perform.
If we're talking mouthpieces, well then that's another story.
I'm anxious to read something from the OP... |
What is it about the Monette sound that doesn't let it blend?
What if we all played Bach but one guy played a 10E and another 1B would the sound be a good blend? Should we all play the same mouthpiece too?
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Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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jhahntpt
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Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 676
Location: Southington CT
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I play a Yamaha New York Bb with a Monette B2S3 mouthpiece. I WISH I could afford a Monette trumpet...especially the new Classic MB-111 that would be awesome...
With regards to mouthpieces I have tried EVERYTHING. Well...I haven't played a Parduba or a GR but I've tried almost ever brand, every gimmick, material, and every size and I have finally found something comfortable with regard to sound and ease of playing in my current set up.
When I was younger I played Getzen trumpets. They play great but don't sound quite as good as other top tier trumpets. I was guilted into switching to Bach in college as that was "what everyone plays" and so I switched to a 37 and a 229/25H. I've since ditched both for two of the finest instruments I've ever played and couldn't be happier with how I'm playing right now.
Side note: I feel like I'm actually glad I didn't have these horns in college, I probably would have talked myself into pursuing a masters in performance and would be in the place in life that I'm at right now.
_________________
Bb: Yamaha 9335NY Gen3
Bb: Yamaha 8310Z
C: Shires 4S/W1B
Piccolo: Yamaha 9830
Flugel: Yamaha 8315G
Cornet: York Eminence |
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snichols
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetchops wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | I'm confused by blbaumgarn's poke at me.. I did not rant against all things anti Bach. I might have been a bit quick and snarky with my short statement ut the OP did leave the door wide open for comments -> no background, no frame of reference, and wasn't even sure whether we were talking about trumpets or mouthieces. I haven't seen the OP show up again either...?
Yes, I am a Bach Endosing Artist, but that came to me after many years of performing and finding by comparison that I prefer Bach's, for me they stand up against and out perform many others.
To clear up any doubt, of the 3 mentioned I prefer Bach trumpets (not mouthpoieces)..
Bach- tone, how it stays together in the room/hall, how I sound playing a Bach (especially on recordings), flexibility and playability. I highly encourage you to try a new 19037.
Yamaha - I have played several models over many years - just never got comfortable with the sound.. feedback on stage, in halls, and on recordings. The proof in the pudding for me was that each time I swapped from a Yamaha to a Bach, I always received unpromted compliments from my colleagues
Monettes - play wonderfully, BUT sound so unique that they often don't blend with others and aren't as flexible from one genre to another. Wynton is awesome on his, but he doesn't play in a trumpet section so can sound any old way he likes-plus I'm sure he sounds fantastic on anything he picks up. Big bucks too!
Blackburn - the best trumpet I've ever played, expensive. The one I owned was big and legit... unwieldly for what I moslty perform.
If we're talking mouthpieces, well then that's another story.
I'm anxious to read something from the OP... |
What is it about the Monette sound that doesn't let it blend?
What if we all played Bach but one guy played a 10E and another 1B would the sound be a good blend? Should we all play the same mouthpiece too? |
Blend is overrated anyway. I think people should care less about it. |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| snichols wrote: | | trumpetchops wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | I'm confused by blbaumgarn's poke at me.. I did not rant against all things anti Bach. I might have been a bit quick and snarky with my short statement ut the OP did leave the door wide open for comments -> no background, no frame of reference, and wasn't even sure whether we were talking about trumpets or mouthieces. I haven't seen the OP show up again either...?
Yes, I am a Bach Endosing Artist, but that came to me after many years of performing and finding by comparison that I prefer Bach's, for me they stand up against and out perform many others.
To clear up any doubt, of the 3 mentioned I prefer Bach trumpets (not mouthpoieces)..
Bach- tone, how it stays together in the room/hall, how I sound playing a Bach (especially on recordings), flexibility and playability. I highly encourage you to try a new 19037.
Yamaha - I have played several models over many years - just never got comfortable with the sound.. feedback on stage, in halls, and on recordings. The proof in the pudding for me was that each time I swapped from a Yamaha to a Bach, I always received unpromted compliments from my colleagues
Monettes - play wonderfully, BUT sound so unique that they often don't blend with others and aren't as flexible from one genre to another. Wynton is awesome on his, but he doesn't play in a trumpet section so can sound any old way he likes-plus I'm sure he sounds fantastic on anything he picks up. Big bucks too!
Blackburn - the best trumpet I've ever played, expensive. The one I owned was big and legit... unwieldly for what I moslty perform.
If we're talking mouthpieces, well then that's another story.
I'm anxious to read something from the OP... |
What is it about the Monette sound that doesn't let it blend?
What if we all played Bach but one guy played a 10E and another 1B would the sound be a good blend? Should we all play the same mouthpiece too? |
Blend is overrated anyway. I think people should care less about it. |
Part of the problem is that people mean different things by it... some mean a homogeneity (seeking the same approximate timbre), some mean a mix of sounds that is complimentary, others just mean that the sounds mix together tolerably without any sticking out too much. |
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trumpet_cop
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
Ah, then I think the patrons of the Minnesota Orchestra see one every week. |
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn?
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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snichols
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn? |
What horn was he playing when he won the job back in '81 before Monette made trumpets? Or Charlie for that matter in Boston? I'd be more curious to see how many top orchestral players actually won the gig on a Monette - not won it and switched after they had the job secured. I know a few Oregon guys have Monette horns - did they play them when they auditioned? Anybody else? You might say it's splitting hairs, but I think it's a fair argument/question to ask how likely it is that a person wins a major orchestra job on a Monette horn nowadays... |
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theslawdawg
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| snichols wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn? |
What horn was he playing when he won the job back in '81 before Monette made trumpets? Or Charlie for that matter in Boston? I'd be more curious to see how many top orchestral players actually won the gig on a Monette - not won it and switched after they had the job secured. I know a few Oregon guys have Monette horns - did they play them when they auditioned? Anybody else? You might say it's splitting hairs, but I think it's a fair argument/question to ask how likely it is that a person wins a major orchestra job on a Monette horn nowadays... |
Sigh...this is why I take breaks from this site.
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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oljackboy
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Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Scotty Barnhart(sp) has a unique sound when he solos on his Monette. If you listen very carefully to the ensemble, you can sometimes notice his sound in the section. But the real question is: is it okay? I think so, personally.
The concept of all the trumpet players playing the same equipment for a "blended" sound has always seemed a little odd to me. I sound like me on just about every Bb I play for any length of time. We all have a personal sound image. Mine is not the same as a lot of other players, no matter what equipment they or I use. |
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dstdenis
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Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kanstul1525 wrote: | | The 'feel' of the trumpet is most important, isn't it? Sound, too, of course. But the trumpet must respond as an extension of the player. |
I’d say it’s (1) sound, (2) playability, and then (3) quality of materials and manufacture. They’re kinda related too, because better quality helps playability, and they both help sound.
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Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | | Kanstul1525 wrote: | | The 'feel' of the trumpet is most important, isn't it? Sound, too, of course. But the trumpet must respond as an extension of the player. |
I’d say it’s (1) sound, (2) playability, and then (3) quality of materials and manufacture. They’re kinda related too, because better quality helps playability, and they both help sound. |
There's so many interlinked aspects that it's hard to really boil it down to individual factors, you're right...
We can talk about sound and playability, but equally we could start from intonation, which will dictate sound and playability to some extent.
We can talk about build quality, but build quality will affect playability and intonation (stress-free assembly, no solder blobs... etc - in short, the closest to blueprint correct). |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12662
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| theslawdawg wrote: | | snichols wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn? |
What horn was he playing when he won the job back in '81 before Monette made trumpets? Or Charlie for that matter in Boston? I'd be more curious to see how many top orchestral players actually won the gig on a Monette - not won it and switched after they had the job secured. I know a few Oregon guys have Monette horns - did they play them when they auditioned? Anybody else? You might say it's splitting hairs, but I think it's a fair argument/question to ask how likely it is that a person wins a major orchestra job on a Monette horn nowadays... |
Sigh...this is why I take breaks from this site. |
Actually I think both questions are valid.
First, who was able to win an audition using a Monette. For instance, if the OP had to audition for his position with the Vancouver Symphony, would he have won the position playing on a Monette?
Second, would he be able to keep his position playing a Monette.
I personally have no dog in this Monette fight. I have played in a section with someone who played lead on an early Monette C, while the rest of us played on Bbs. I didn't have a problem blending. |
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snichols
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| theslawdawg wrote: | | snichols wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn? |
What horn was he playing when he won the job back in '81 before Monette made trumpets? Or Charlie for that matter in Boston? I'd be more curious to see how many top orchestral players actually won the gig on a Monette - not won it and switched after they had the job secured. I know a few Oregon guys have Monette horns - did they play them when they auditioned? Anybody else? You might say it's splitting hairs, but I think it's a fair argument/question to ask how likely it is that a person wins a major orchestra job on a Monette horn nowadays... |
Sigh...this is why I take breaks from this site. |
I suppose that's your prerogative, but for a number of people the ability to win an audition on their chosen equipment is a valid point to consider. Having been in the audition circuit until recently, I know that I've seen some Monette mouthpiece users advancing and winning auditions, but not many (if any) players on Monette trumpets. And I heard some great players in the warmup rooms on Monette horns, but their sound is typically noticeably different than the other players on Bach, Yamaha, Shires, etc. And when it comes down to it, the audition panel wants a certain sound/timbre (among other things) and the timbres that panels will accept seems to have been narrowing over the years. As an example, some feedback regarding my tone from one of my auditions said "Sounds good but doesn't fit in the ****** section" (ensemble omitted by me). Again, I have no personal beef with Monette equipment as I've played their mouthpieces in the past and generally liked them, and I even like their lightweight horns. That's why I ask about other people's knowledge of audition winners using Monette trumpets, because I am not aware of many. Quite honestly, I'm glad I'm out of the audition circuit now because I feel like the pressure and expectation is off me to have a certain sound or playing style and I'm actually more likely to experiment with different equipment. But this relates to my post about blend being overrated, because if it were up to me audition panels would accept a wider variety of sounds into sections/ensembles. But as it is, it seems like the deck is stacked against anyone not on "traditional" equipment. Maybe my previous post was a bit too sarcastic, but I think it points to an issue that is relevant to some folks. |
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Daniel Barenboim
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Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 247
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| trumpet_cop wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
Ah, then I think the patrons of the Minnesota Orchestra see one every week. |
Except when he leaves the stage in protest.
DB |
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Daniel Barenboim
Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 247
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bach vs Yamaha vs Monette |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: |
You are more likely to see a unicorn than a Monette in a big orchestra these days.
DB |
I give you Manny Laureano, Minnesota Orchestra: Manny
Where's my unicorn? |
Nice work. Hero cookie for you! Besides Manny these horns are few and far between.
Maybe everyone will switch to the new/throwback Chicago weight models. Better start $aving!
DB |
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GordonH
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:43 am Post subject: |
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I have played Selmer Paris, Yamaha, Monette and Bach trumpets for extended periods in my life. I have also played Bach, Breslmair and Monette Mouthpieces at different times.
I have a sound that is different to other people so I am not sure I blend on any equipment. I always sound like me.
The trick is to find equipment that makes that easier and I know what I like: Instruments with a nice even and quick response, that play in tune pretty well and that have a good low register. That can be instruments from all sort of manufacturer.
Looking through my gear my Bach 43, my Taiwanese D trumpet, my Besson cornet and my Courtois Flugel all have those characteristics. So it is not down to one manufacturer of choice.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| I know of at least one NY Phil audition won by a player on a Monette in the 1990s, and another player that won a spot on a Yamaha a few years later, but Phil Smith preferred they both switch to Bachs, and they did. Now you have several major US sym orch sections, including the NYP, playing Yamaha, which you probably could not find 10-15 years ago. Preferences change, but uniformity is probably more of a concern in many symphonic settings than in, say, studio/pit/commercial settings. Obviously, if the timbres are starkly different from one player to the next, then there probably needs to be an adjustment. I filled in with my long bell Bach cornet in a local brass band a few years ago, while everyone else had Shepherd's crook cornets, and I found that I definitely had to adjust my blow to match the sounds around me. |
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snichols
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | I know of at least one NY Phil audition won by a player on a Monette in the 1990s |
Hmmm, was it Thomas Smith? Just guessing based off his education and early career in Boston... |
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dstpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| snichols wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | | I know of at least one NY Phil audition won by a player on a Monette in the 1990s |
Hmmm, was it Thomas Smith? Just guessing based off his education and early career in Boston... |
I bought a slightly used Yamaha Chicago C from George Coble (over 10 years ago) through TH Marketplace, and he told me his story of winning his position with the NYP on a Monette, but had to switch to a Bach in accordance with his contract. He said one customization he had done to the Bach was to have the 3rd slide cut down slightly, that the 2-3 combination was a little too "tubby" in pitch for his taste, particularly the low A-flat as at the end of the opening of Mahler 5. He came from Schenectady, NY, and went back there after 1.5 year (as I recall), because he missed being able to walk off his front porch and go deer hunting in the woods. Jim Wilt won his position in the NYP on a Yamaha. As I heard, he was there about the same amount of time, but didn't see raising his young family in NJ. He had taken a leave of absence from the HSO (Houston) with permission from then artistic director Christoph Eschenbach and went back to the HSO and eventually landed his present job in the LA Phil. Both great players. Both won their jobs on different equipment and switched to satisfy their leadership's preference. All perfectly understandable given the circumstances.
If you've watched the most recent Monster Oil interview with George Vosburgh, you know how strongly he feels about using Bach trumpets, that there are qualities of timbre and musical expression that he feels one can obtain on them over any other. It appears that Mr. Smith felt the same when he played in the NYP. On another side of the coin, those orch sections as well as classical/jazz/commercial artists that are now using Yamahas are finding playability aspects worth using those instruments, just as the pros using Monettes or any other brand. When I sent that Yamaha C off to Wayne Tanabe to have "tweaked," he told me that Yamaha's philosophy is that if they can make a change that will improve an instrument only 2 percent, then they will forge ahead and make that change. I think that's a pretty cool approach (although admittedly I don't presently own a Yamaha).
Some manufacturers do not have that philosophy. In fact when one local band instrument store salesman (and freelance commercial trumpeter) went to the Bach factory a couple of years ago, he asked what it was with their flugelhorn and why he personally did not like the ones he had played. The factory rep told him that the company has a certain part of their process tied to honoring some of the original design concepts of Vincent Bach, himself, which would explain why maybe some things have not advanced as we would have expected. What is neat is to see some of the changes they have done with some of their line in recent years, like with the lightweight B-flat, using a 2nd slide pointing toward the 3rd valve instead of 1st (as you would see on a Benge), Amado water keys, and no tuning slide brace. To me those seem like huge changes from their traditional designs and begs questions like, “What did it take for the company to get to that point of making those ‘dramatic’ changes?” |
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