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richarddownunder
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Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: B&S tuning slides - how loose is too loose? |
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Hi
I've recently bought a new B&S Challenger 2. The 3rd valve slide is VERY loose - it slides out by itself when using a mute or even when the valves aren't touched (doesn't hold a vacuum). I've been told by the supplier that this is common and to use a hair tie to hold it in and loose is good for quick tuning adjustment. I was wondering if I have missed something in years gone by as none of my previous instruments have been like this. My Yamaha C slides are easily moved but don't slide around by themselves - if there wasn't a stop, the B&S slide would have ended up on the floor numerous times. Is this common, a peculiarity of B&S or have I just got a dud? The tolerances certainly don't seem as tight as other trumpets I have had or used, even my old Boosey and Hawkes, so I'm a bit disappointed with it at this point and wish I'd stuck to my guns and got the Eclipse I really wanted.
Cheers
Richard  |
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Grits Burgh
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TKSop
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: |
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If you take it to a good tech, they can (gently!) enlarge the inner legs just enough to fit tighter and get that vacuum back...
Ofcourse, the other explanation is that the slide is just normal-loose and the leak is somewhere else (the waterkey or god forbid the valve) |
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snichols
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| That slide grease is probably a good bet. I'm guessing that the lanolin would might be too heavy for a 3rd slide, so another option between the two would also be Hetmans #7 slide gel. A little stickier than grease but not quite as sticky as lanolin. |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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If it slides out by itself there is a vacuum leak. There are a few possibilities for what is causing it.
1. You have vented valves. I doubt this is the case, but when this is done the slide can move when the valve is up, without being affected by the vacuum.
2. The slide is too loose and the vacuum is leaking around the slide legs.
3. The valves are fitted loosely and the air is leaking there.
4. The water key is not fitted properly.
5. There is a bad solder joint on the slide.
Thicker grease is an option. It will certainly slow down the slide and the slide droop.
But on a new horn, I would have a disinterested third party tech check the valves and the slide to see which is the cause. If the valve, I would be discussing returning the horn for one that doesn't have loosely fit valves. Sometimes horns have issues from the factory and you don't want to be fighting it or discover the real issue after the warranty is up. |
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richarddownunder
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Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. There are a very limited number of instrument techs locally ... so I'll look into the grease option first. I wondered if they are vented pistons but I couldn't see a hole so I suspect they aren't. I have also asked Buffet Crampon, the parent company, whether this is typical of the model. The water key seems OK but I'll have to do a bit of experimenting to see where the leak is. If it is the valves, I'll take it back, assuming it isn't vented.
Thanks again for your help everybody
Cheers
Richard |
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TKSop
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| richarddownunder wrote: | Thanks for all the replies. There are a very limited number of instrument techs locally ... so I'll look into the grease option first. I wondered if they are vented pistons but I couldn't see a hole so I suspect they aren't. I have also asked Buffet Crampon, the parent company, whether this is typical of the model. The water key seems OK but I'll have to do a bit of experimenting to see where the leak is. If it is the valves, I'll take it back, assuming it isn't vented.
Thanks again for your help everybody
Cheers
Richard |
There are a few simple tests you could do yourself that might give you some idea of what's *likely* to be the problem...
1) Remove the third slide and cover the top inner leg (the bit still on the horn) with a thumb... press third valve down and blow into the leadpipe.
What should happen is that you feel like you're blowing against a brick wall - no air hisses anywhere.... If you're getting hisses, then it's probably going to be from either the main-slide waterkey (see test 2 to confirm/eliminate) or it's probably going to be the valves.
2) Remove the third slide, cover one of the legs of the slide and blow down the other leg...
You should feel like you're blowing against a brick wall as before - if you're getting a hissing noise (or you can feel the air escaping) from the waterkey then that's probably your leak.
If both of these tests pass (don't show a leak), then try this....
3) Now re-insert the third slide (without grease) make sure the slide-stop is in place (don't want it flying off), put some valve oil on the slide (nothing thicker) and remove the second slide - covering the top leg... put down valves two+three, and blow down the leadpipe.
If the slide is so loose that it's leaking air, then this third test should show it - the valveoil on the slide would start bubbling out if it's that loose. |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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to me it's not normal that the slide is that loose on a new horn
lanolin s fantastic but only a workaround for a bigger problem
I use lanolin on all of my slides for the past 40+ years
good luck
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richarddownunder
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Joined: 02 Feb 2018
Posts: 78
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | richarddownunder wrote: | Thanks for all the replies. There are a very limited number of instrument techs locally ... so I'll look into the grease option first. I wondered if they are vented pistons but I couldn't see a hole so I suspect they aren't. I have also asked Buffet Crampon, the parent company, whether this is typical of the model. The water key seems OK but I'll have to do a bit of experimenting to see where the leak is. If it is the valves, I'll take it back, assuming it isn't vented.
Thanks again for your help everybody
Cheers
Richard |
There are a few simple tests you could do yourself that might give you some idea of what's *likely* to be the problem...
1) Remove the third slide and cover the top inner leg (the bit still on the horn) with a thumb... press third valve down and blow into the leadpipe.
What should happen is that you feel like you're blowing against a brick wall - no air hisses anywhere.... If you're getting hisses, then it's probably going to be from either the main-slide waterkey (see test 2 to confirm/eliminate) or it's probably going to be the valves.
2) Remove the third slide, cover one of the legs of the slide and blow down the other leg...
You should feel like you're blowing against a brick wall as before - if you're getting a hissing noise (or you can feel the air escaping) from the waterkey then that's probably your leak.
If both of these tests pass (don't show a leak), then try this....
3) Now re-insert the third slide (without grease) make sure the slide-stop is in place (don't want it flying off), put some valve oil on the slide (nothing thicker) and remove the second slide - covering the top leg... put down valves two+three, and blow down the leadpipe.
If the slide is so loose that it's leaking air, then this third test should show it - the valveoil on the slide would start bubbling out if it's that loose. |
Thanks, good plan. I'll try that out when I get home.
Cheers
Richard |
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JeffTheHornGuy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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The third valve is vented! The slide is not loose; it's designed to slide even when the valve is not pressed. If you look at the valve itself, you can see a tiny pin-hole near the bottom that lets the air leave.
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richarddownunder
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Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| JeffTheHornGuy wrote: | | The third valve is vented! The slide is not loose; it's designed to slide even when the valve is not pressed. If you look at the valve itself, you can see a tiny pin-hole near the bottom that lets the air leave. |
OOOh. I'll look more closely when I get home, didn't notice it when I looked at the valves (only had the horn a few days) and that changes things - although its still a pain when you hold a mute to the bell, start playing and the note drops a semitone as the slide flies out to the stop with a clank! How do you get around that? I notice you have a diffrent model to mine - are all the Challenger 2's vented?
I also found a link saying that an elastic band around the slide to hold it in is a bad idea as the rubber affects the finish of the instrument.
Cheers
Richard |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| richarddownunder wrote: | | JeffTheHornGuy wrote: | | The third valve is vented! The slide is not loose; it's designed to slide even when the valve is not pressed. If you look at the valve itself, you can see a tiny pin-hole near the bottom that lets the air leave. |
OOOh. I'll look more closely when I get home, didn't notice it when I looked at the valves (only had the horn a few days) and that changes things - although its still a pain when you hold a mute to the bell, start playing and the note drops a semitone as the slide flies out to the stop with a clank! How do you get around that? I notice you have a diffrent model to mine - are all the Challenger 2's vented?
I also found a link saying that an elastic band around the slide to hold it in is a bad idea as the rubber affects the finish of the instrument.
Cheers
Richard |
True, rubber will definitely leave a permanent black mark on silver, happened to my Benge. Not really a big deal, but if cosmetics are important, keep rubber away from silver.
Brad
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| richarddownunder wrote: | I also found a link saying that an elastic band around the slide to hold it in is a bad idea as the rubber affects the finish of the instrument.
Cheers
Richard |
The sulphur in rubber can react with a silver finish causing very hard to remove marks. I have marks on my C from the rubber gutter guard.
If it is lacquered you should be fine. Also, many people recommend using cloth covered hair ties. |
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Agree with previous poster, the valve is probably vented. My Cannonball made by B&S is like this and the third valve slide behaves like you describe. I use a hair tie to stop it sliding out.
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richarddownunder
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | Agree with previous poster, the valve is probably vented. My Cannonball made by B&S is like this and the third valve slide behaves like you describe. I use a hair tie to stop it sliding out. |
Hi
I have had a good look at the 3rd valve - I can't see any hole to vent anything - I might be looking in the wrong place though. There is no evidence of a hole anywhere in the side of the valve at least. It does however leak air as the slide is pushed back in - it makes a wheezing sound through the 3rd valve and I can feel the air through the vent in the bottom of the bottom valve cap.
Am I missing something? If this is unintentional leakage (the valve does look a bit scored), what should I do? Its a brand new horn. So there seems to be 2 issues, the valve leaking and the slopy fit of the 3rd slide.
Interestingly, the first valve slide is the same. If you blow through the upper pipe into the valve casing, both seem to wheese and leak. The first valve is proably more than the 3rd. Neither slide goes pop when you pull them out. Can't see a hole anywhere on the 1st valve either.
Cheers
Richard |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Do a search online. Use the string "+trumpet +vent +valve +challenger". You can then see links that talk about vented valves.
I saw a comment at WWBW on a B&S Challenger II where the commenter talks about the venting and the pros and cons. You might find other links that discuss them. |
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richarddownunder
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | Do a search online. Use the string "+trumpet +vent +valve +challenger". You can then see links that talk about vented valves.
I saw a comment at WWBW on a B&S Challenger II where the commenter talks about the venting and the pros and cons. You might find other links that discuss them. |
From what I can see, venting only applies to the Elaboration model.
Cheers
Richard |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | richarddownunder wrote: | I also found a link saying that an elastic band around the slide to hold it in is a bad idea as the rubber affects the finish of the instrument.
Cheers
Richard |
The sulphur in rubber can react with a silver finish causing very hard to remove marks. I have marks on my C from the rubber gutter guard.
If it is lacquered you should be fine. Also, many people recommend using cloth covered hair ties. |
True, but you do have to be careful with hair ties also. The marks left on my Benge were from a hair tie; it was covered with what I thought was cloth, but apparently was porous enough for the rubber underneath to make contact with the silver.
Brad
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richarddownunder
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Found this on another site: "Some B&S (MBX, DBX,...) have the venting (small hole at the valves) at the first and third slide.
I didn´t like it at all, the first one was gone every moment.
It got loose in the Gig Bag and I had to take it veeery carefully out of the bag.
If the stopping mechanism of the third one is a screw, the third one also can fly away easily, if the screw wasn´t tightend before."
So some B&S models are vented. I don't think mine are...they just leak as there is no hole. Actually, if you hold the trumpet by the bell, the 1st slide will eventually fall out so a Torpedo - type bag would be a bit of a problem as you would have to fish the 1st slide out of the case all the time.
Maybe time to give the supplier a ring.
Cheers
Richard |
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Heim
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Brad361"] | richarddownunder wrote: | | JeffTheHornGuy wrote: |
I also found a link saying that an elastic band around the slide to hold it in is a bad idea as the rubber affects the finish of the instrument.
Cheers
Richard |
True, rubber will definitely leave a permanent black mark on silver, happened to my Benge. Not really a big deal, but if cosmetics are important, keep rubber away from silver.
Brad |
The rubber will eventually rot the silver that it touches right down to the brass. You can use round elastic cord. I believe that Monette uses the cheaper black but the metallic finish looks better in either gold or silver. |
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