the C emerges

[theslawdawg]

Wow. Here come the ten foot tall bar-room brawlers through the computer screen. Let’s remember we play trumpet and not bust doors down hunting terrorists...well...I might do a little of both.

And this is why I don’t post much in the last ten years. I thought John’s comments were very thought out and provide a good foundation for some feedback on the matter of physical attributes and trumpet playing. And if they weren’t, there’s a better way to respectfully disagree.

Whether you agree or not is your right but calling someone ignorant is bold through a computer screen. I am curious if you would say that to his face or to mine if we were in a room together.

And yes, I just exchanged emails with one former MF lead player who stays away from this site due to the nastiness, and “experts”. In my time in the military I have seen quite a few bullies but nothing compared to the experts on this site.

Please feel free to message, call, or come see me in FL.
_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs

[Rod Haney]

Slawdog - you must be from the south, that’s a distinctly southern dish haha.
I dont think the guys a Tush-hog but THE internet really doesn’t always bring out the best impressions.
At least he did post examples of his playing which is vastly more than I have seen most do, even those selling this type of instruction. Also to give him his due as he points out these notes can be achieved without a lot of power or air (I remember the 1st time I heard Jim Manley do pp doubles with perfect ease, my jaw dropped) but in a performance setting he bears down quite a bit more and uses big boy support. I heard Jerry Callet hit pitches almost as high with some ease. I seen guys use wig settings and do it.

I agree that ‘ignorant’ is probably not a good choice of words but I think he and John were using different contexts. I may be mistaken but I took trumpetplanet to mean that the pitch can be produced with little air, and John meant that the normally accepted richer sound for hi register required a degree of strength and air support. If I’m correct in my assumption about their points, then they are both correct. If I have their intent bass ackward then I think both are wrong but I dont know manure.
I’m quitting this, as I said before to Lionel and the guy who had the equipment AHA write it down, I need it.
Rod

[tptguy]

Having done a great many clinics and festivals around the country, I find that the biggest hurdle players with range, pitch, and power issues (which, unfortunately, is most trumpeters) is the existing sound concept. In recent decades, we've become accustomed to and accepting of a cloudy, billowy, spread, uncentered, dull, out-of-tune trumpet sound. So much so that when a student hears a powerful, focused, centered, and in tune trumpet sound they are typically quite surprised by the big difference.

I realize that most trumpeters consider sound concept a matter of personal taste. That's the reason sound concept is such a hurdle. Everyone thinks theirs is valid. Unfortunately, the more you practice with a spread, fluffy, unfocused sound the more you work against yourself. And the more you work against the chops then the more you have to blow hard which spreads the chops, decreases power, and wonks intonation even more. It's difficult to move the ears out of the comfort zone they've become accustomed to. It's a big hurdle that most trumpeters never get over.

[trumpetplanet]

I am aware that it's generally unfair to call people ignorant, but you should know that I only said it because I do know who I'm talking to. JM is a long standing user of this board needs to be called out when making claims that someone's physical size affects their natural ability to play high notes on the instrument. It's just not true.

I'm also very conscious of the fact that many good players are driven off of this board by people who don't give them the respect that they deserve. Lynn Nicholson is a classic example of someone who gave up chatting here because people wouldn't believe the things he teaches.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[Croquethed]

At the risk of calling down further remonstrations, perhaps the concept to consider strengthwise is our aerobic capacity or VO2Max, and strength to weight ratio, which does not limit capabilities to linebackers.

Going back to John's original comment, he explicitly names several slimmer monsters of the mouthpiece, and I did not detect any bias toward the bulkier denizens of the brass section.

In addition to lip slurs, long tones, pedals, 19/30s, or whatever approach one pursues to extend range, I also suggest running two miles every morning (tongue in cheek, lest those who take the words "running" and "miles" too literally take offense). Being in shape is good for every aspect of life, above-the-staff ability included.

[Jerry Freedman]

I have a trumpet playing friend with a double C that could peel paint and a gorgeous PPP and one useable long with asthma for the other. I have asthma too and I have to be careful with deep breaths and the Gordon lung emptying exercises. It's more technique than strength. Natalie Dungee (sp?) an Adam Rapa student with several youtube posts was playing high Gs as a 12 year old girl

[Rod Haney]

[bach_again]

A lot of people got their backs up here, it's pretty silly!

Rich called John's premise ignorant, not John himself. I'm sure JM's skin is thick enough to take this verbal assault. He's been called worse on here and usually a good enough sport to reply without ad hominem attacks.

There's a fine line between censorship and free speech. I think you should be able call someone's premise "ignorant" all day long so long as you are willing to enter into debate and support your argument with some factual evidence.

Lynn didn't leave here because someone called his ideas ignorant, it was more disrespectful and consistent than that.

As for the topic at hand, CG works for some and those devoted to developing the upper register with sheer wind power and strength, sure, it could help to be big and strong. It's not the only way to play with a full sound or a big upper register.

If it is true that being big and relatively strong helps develop blowing strength, then that is precisely what impeeded my own upper register development.

Take what works, drop the rest, don't continue to back the losing horse and keep her lit. The answers are out there, keep looking for em, keep doing what works and don't mention the dreaded "i" word.

As for the TCE sound/Rich's playing. I've heard him in person and he has a very fine sound and command of the instrument. You can prefer a different sound, but it's demonstrably not bad or thin. There's quite a few more TCE guys with real big sounds, you just gotta look for them... Mac Gollehon has a huge sound. Bahb Civiletti too. Some symphony guys playing TCE as well!

I've no wish to be involved in mud slinging, but the power of reasoned debate is slowly ebbing away as people demand/enforce the right to not be offended. I usually learn something about myself when I analyse why I feel offended. It's not always bad!

Best to all here - keep on keepin on. All on the same team and all that...

Mike
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals

The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU

[trumpetteacher1]

Rod, in three separate posts you have taken negative shots at someone's playing here, and hid behind the old "it's just my opinion" excuse.

Just stop.

I suspect that your perspective cannot be changed, so I won't even try. Stereotypes are easy to fall into, but are almost always traps which keep us from seeing the bigger picture.

Trumpets and trumpet playing are already an endangered species. Taking "ignorant" shots at each other's playing here just helps to speed up the extinction.

Jeff

[MF Fan]

If one method always worked for everyone that tried it, there would be only one method out there. There are basic principles to brass playing that do generally work for everyone, e.g. relaxed inhalation, maintain good posture, no tension in the upper chest/throat, etc. Beyond that different people will find varying degrees of success with any given "method." Upstream guys tend to do better with Costello, but won't find as much success with Maggio/Gordon due to the use of pedal tones, etc. Even those are generalizations that don't hold try in every case. Everyone brings a unique physical structure to the horn, dental structure, jaw configuration, etc. being some of the most significant in my opinion. For that reason some approaches, models, etc. seem to result in varying degrees of success. To call-out one as being better than another may be true for an individual, to say the same is true in general for everyone else is foolish. Make sure you're adhering to the basic principles, and then do what works best for you.
_________________
MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra

[Rod Haney]

[trumpetteacher1]

Rod, you have now repeated yourself four times.

From my perspective, each time you dig the hole deeper. You have accepted a stereotype about ALL Callet-influenced players, and through selective hearing you are convinced that you are right.

Apparently you don't think that my ears are as good as yours. My orchestral and commercial students would disagree.

Yes, you are entitled to an opinion. But a continuous pounding of that opinion, as if continuously repeating it will make you right, actually makes you look dogmatic.

I never said anything about CG. Why you brought that up is anyone's guess.

For a self-professed "hack," you sure post a lot of "strong" opinions.

Jeff

[bach_again]

Rod, give this a listen and report back.


Link

_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals

The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU

[deleted_user_02066fd]

I've heard Jerry Callet and Bob Civiletti in person. Both are powerful and accurate. I understand that as Jerry has moved into his mid 80's he's not quite as powerful and accurate as he was when I heard him over 20 years ago. I believe Jerry is 87 or 88. Age will do that to the best of us. I was once able to run a mile in 5 minutes. At 62 I couldn't do that if I was running downhill with the wind at my back while being chased by a bear.
I've never heard Mac G in person but from the videos I've seen on YT he sounds pretty damn good to me.
TCE or whatever it's called these days works for some and not for others. The same could be said for Gordon, Maggio, Stevens etc.

[INTJ]

[theslawdawg]

[INTJ]

[Rod Haney]

[Grits Burgh]

[Don Herman rev2]

This is sooo stereotypical. One player starts talking about how he's gained some range, and the thread degenerates into players pissing on each other. Insert "joke" about trumpet players screwing in a light bulb line here... Supportive, not.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley