Learning Improvisation As a Classical Player

[jules_831]

What tips or programs can be recommended for a classical player starting out with jazz improv?
Would you do a lot of transcriptions first?

[bike&ed]

Do you have enough posts for the marketplace yet?

[Brent]

Transcribing is a great start. There's a book by Jerry Coker that was extremely helpful for me when I started my journey:

https://www.alfred.com/elements-of-the-jazz-language-for-the-developing-improvisor/p/00-SB300CD/
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Brent

[bnsd]

transcribing solos, or reading transcribed solos and analyzing them did wonders for me... I'm a long way from a good soloist, but I know what's wrong and what's right.

The other thing I would suggest is some improve lessons... some local jazz guy that can work you with on phrasing and note choice. As a legit player that made the transition, I find I play WAY too inside, and have worked very hard to differentiate my attack and my swing feel from my classical chops.

[HERMOKIWI]

The most basic skill necessary is the ability to accurately maintain the melodic line. If you want to become proficient in jazz improvisation you start with developing that ability.

The exercise is quite simple. It's very advantageous to work with "music minus one" recordings such as those available from Aebersold and The Real Book. I suggest that you start with basic 12 bar blues.

Here's what you do: Play along with the recording but don't try to play a complex solo. Instead, what you want to do is imitate the bass line. Start by playing just one whole note per measure. Do it by ear until you can play through the 12 bars while always playing a note within the chord structure that sounds correct. There are multiple notes that will work for each measure. You don't memorize a single pattern. You become fluent in varying the notes while always staying within the melodic line. You are essentially "improvising" one whole note per measure. You just want to work through this, one whole note per measure, until you can do that by ear with 100% accuracy every time (with notes that fit).

Then you progress to two half notes per measure. Then you progress to four quarter notes per measure. Then you progress to eight eighth notes per measure. All of this is as if you're playing the bass line (although you should cover as much range as you can). What you're learning to do is to instinctively maintain the melodic line by ear.

You apply this foundational process to all songs: Blues, rhythm changes, melodies.

Everything in improvisation begins with and references the melodic line. Until you can maintain the melodic line accurately by ear you're going to have difficulty with improvisation.

Once you can accurately maintain the melodic line you want to increase your jazz improvisation vocabulary. That's done by listening to a lot of improvised jazz, studying transcriptions, etc. and assimilating what you hear into your jazz improvisation styling. This phase includes studying and developing "licks."

The biggest problem students have in developing proficiency in jazz improvisation is that they put the cart before the horse, that is, they dive into the second phase (trying to learn and play "licks") before they develop the foundational ability to accurately maintain the melodic line.

If you want to develop proficiency in jazz improvisation you have to develop your skills from the bottom up, that is, you must first focus on the most foundational elements. The most foundational element is developing the ability to maintain the melodic line. It takes time and patience but you will be well rewarded.
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HERMOKIWI

[Halflip]

Since you are a classical musician, this may be helpful -- note the comment at the end made by my classical musician ex-girlfriend (I am copying a post I made on a different thread in this forum):

A long time ago when I took some night classes in jazz theory and performance at the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music, I was taught one principle that made improvising on popular songs and standards much easier.

Most standards have chord progressions which can be roughly translated into a series of cadences (ii-V7-I chord progressions) in different keys. (Since these are cadences in keys other than that of the actual song, they are sometimes referred to as 'false cadences'.) Once you do this for a given song, and you have developed patterns or "licks" that you can play over cadences in all keys, it becomes much more natural to construct a meaningful improvised solo.

This is why certain of the Jamie Aebersold practice recordings focus on the ii-V7-I progression in all keys. Of course, you have to account for minor key cadences, and some compositions will not fit the cadence pattern readily, but most do. As you become more fluent in playing interesting patterns (based on appropriate scales and arpeggios) over cadences, you can work on enhancing the pure tunefulness and creativity of your solos.

At one time I had a girlfriend who was a professional violinist with a symphony orchestra. I played some jazz recordings for her, and after she listened to a couple of improvised solos, she said, "It's just a bunch of false cadences!"

[Turkle]

I was a classical player first. Now I pretty much only play jazz. It takes a while! About 5 years of hard practice for me to reach a level of proficiency where I could really hang on the bandstand.

Transcription and memorization of solos is so important - it will teach you how to navigate chord changes in a melodic way.

You really do have to learn to think about the "nuts and bolts" of a tune in a way that classical music doesn't force you to do. Being able to think "ok, this is the b9 of the dominant which resolves to the 5 of the tonic" is really helpful when you are trying to figure out what's happening in bebop. Like when you see a dominant chord in certain situations and you'll know which color tones are most appropriate in that instance. "OK, here's a descending augmented triad arpeggio starting on the 3 of the dominant, which hits 3,1,b13,3,1,b13." Funky, man.

Everyone has their own method of figuring it out. I had a teacher who thought entirely in terms of tritone and chord substitutions. I can't think that way. I think entirely in terms of alterations of the root chord (e.g. b13 on a dominant, #11 on a major, etc.). Some think in terms of cells, or digit patterns, or whatever. So you're going to have to figure out a mental approach that works with what you're trying to do.

When you eventually develop those "big ears" you need, you'll be able to listen to songs on the radio or jazz records and think to yourself, "ah, they are playing the #9 over a dominant" or "wow, that's a descending major seventh" because you've trained your ears to pick all that out.

And eventually - after you've thought about everything and learned all the theory and messed around with it for years until it's like speaking a native language - you'll be able to drop the theory and just use your ears to get the sound you want. That's the ideal - the maximum level of freedom - to which we all aspire. It takes years and years of dedicated study to get there. When I'm really "on" and the band is swinging their butts off, and the audience is into it, that's when I get to the place where I can really let it all go and trust my ears and intuition. It's what it's really about.

Cheers.
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[John Mohan]

And there it is:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=104239&s=Schilke-P5-4

Yep, just another time waster who actually seems to think that anyone around here would ever buy anything from someone who joins, makes five disingenuous posts, and thinks he'll then be considered trustworthy enough to send money to.

As of now, 21 posts have been made on the five different threads this guy started by good folks sincerely trying to help him.

[bike&ed]

That’s why I posted about the marketplace right at the start. Oh well, the stuff everyone else posted is actually really great, so hopefully others will be able to benefit regardless of the OP. Heck, that Schilke picc is likely a great horn too...

[John Mohan]

[kehaulani]

Yea, it's amazing to me so many missed the warning right up front. Oh well. internet forums and all that jazz.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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Adams F-1 Flghn

[MrOlds]

Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.

Should the threshold be higher? Maybe.

[homebilly]

50 posts is my vote

then $50 for his horn and HE pays shipping!!!
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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com

[MrOlds]

OTOH how many members have 50 posts of interesting, informative or even useful stuff to say? Me included.

[HERMOKIWI]

The problem isn't so much that the OP wasted our time as it is that the rules permitted to OP to waste our time to get the thing he really wanted: The ability to list in the marketplace. However, if the rules required 50 posts then we'd have people wasting our time ten times as much as they do now, which is certainly not an improvement.

Having our time occasionally wasted is the price we pay for having the marketplace as part of TH. I do tend to agree with others here that one solution is to refuse to buy anything listed by anyone who doesn't have a meaningful number of posts which contribute to the primary purpose of TH: To share information and ideas intended to benefit us as players.
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HERMOKIWI

[John Mohan]

I don't think many if any of the scummy types would actually create 50 disingenuous posts to list in the Marketplace - they'd be too lazy.

I wonder if a word count could be added to the mix? So one would have to post not just a certain number of posts, but a certain amount of writing time. Each and every time these bozos do what they do, they usually limit their posts to a sentence or two.

I think the minimum number of posts before having access to listing on the Marketplace should be at least 50, and also I think there should be a minimum time of 3 months (or longer) from the time of the first post until one can list.

[John Mohan]

[bnsd]

How about first post has to be in The Lounge and we just rip them to shreds? I kid.... regarding marketplace.. caveat emptor or however that goes. If you trust an internet sale because they have 5 inane posts on trumpet herald I'm a French model

[homebilly]

OR

how about if we all contact him about his ad and inquire about it over and over requesting pictures and more information until we piss HIM off?

then NOBODY buys it but we string him along with senseless offers
giving him a dose of his own medicine

who is in???

don't be a part of the solution be a part of a new problem!!!!!


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ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com

[theslawdawg]

...but he does put best offer though....
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs