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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9025
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Considering your answer, are you sure you just don't need something less expensive, but'll get the job at hand done?
I'm not saying don't buy the best, if you've got the money and just want it. But if it's something just "nothing fancy", why not one of Trent Austin's "Doublers'" horns.
For me personally, I got one just for using in a community college big band. Very good band, but the band still doesn't require anything fancy. I got a excellent used Jupiter off of ebay and it does the trick very well. I think it cost me something around $600.00
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Considering your answer, are you sure you just don't need something less expensive, but'll get the job at hand done?
I'm not saying don't buy the best, if you've got the money and just want it. But if it's something just "nothing fancy", why not one of Trent Austin's "Doublers'" horns.
For me personally, I got one just for using in a community college big band. Very good band, but the band still doesn't require anything fancy. I got a excellent used Jupiter off of ebay and it does the trick very well. I think it cost me something around $600.00 |
I’m sure I probably could do just that. However in the back of my mind I’d always want better and eventually end up buying something else. And no I don’t have to have “the best” but at least I know if I have good equipment then my ability will be the lowest common denominator.
JJ |
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| VetPsychWars wrote: | The Getzen Custom Reserve is also worth your attention.
Tom |
They are on a 6-12 month back order...
JJ |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| AwesomeDad wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Considering your answer, are you sure you just don't need something less expensive, but'll get the job at hand done?
I'm not saying don't buy the best, if you've got the money and just want it. But if it's something just "nothing fancy", why not one of Trent Austin's "Doublers'" horns.
For me personally, I got one just for using in a community college big band. Very good band, but the band still doesn't require anything fancy. I got a excellent used Jupiter off of ebay and it does the trick very well. I think it cost me something around $600.00 |
I’m sure I probably could do just that. However in the back of my mind I’d always want better and eventually end up buying something else. And no I don’t have to have “the best” but at least I know if I have good equipment then my ability will be the lowest common denominator.
JJ |
Absolutely understandable - I know I'd be the same, I always want the best and eventually I'll save up and get it.
I think there might still be merit in buying something secondhand (ideally something that's fairly popular) - if you're careful, you'd be able to sell it again for what you paid (possibly more) if/when you decide to get "the best"?
I can see how, in that case, buying a cheaper instrument might not necessarily be the wisest investment, it's almost guaranteed to have lost a good chunk of it's value the moment you take it out of the box... which is fine if you're looking for a cheap horn you can keep, or you're looking for a backup or something for a student - it's not ideal for someone who might be expecting to upgrade before too long. |
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | AwesomeDad wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Considering your answer, are you sure you just don't need something less expensive, but'll get the job at hand done?
I'm not saying don't buy the best, if you've got the money and just want it. But if it's something just "nothing fancy", why not one of Trent Austin's "Doublers'" horns.
For me personally, I got one just for using in a community college big band. Very good band, but the band still doesn't require anything fancy. I got a excellent used Jupiter off of ebay and it does the trick very well. I think it cost me something around $600.00 |
I’m sure I probably could do just that. However in the back of my mind I’d always want better and eventually end up buying something else. And no I don’t have to have “the best” but at least I know if I have good equipment then my ability will be the lowest common denominator.
JJ |
Absolutely understandable - I know I'd be the same, I always want the best and eventually I'll save up and get it.
I think there might still be merit in buying something secondhand (ideally something that's fairly popular) - if you're careful, you'd be able to sell it again for what you paid (possibly more) if/when you decide to get "the best"?
I can see how, in that case, buying a cheaper instrument might not necessarily be the wisest investment, it's almost guaranteed to have lost a good chunk of it's value the moment you take it out of the box... which is fine if you're looking for a cheap horn you can keep, or you're looking for a backup or something for a student - it's not ideal for someone who might be expecting to upgrade before too long. |
And I’m keeping my eyes out but I seem to miss the good deals lol...
JJ |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| AwesomeDad wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Considering your answer, are you sure you just don't need something less expensive, but'll get the job at hand done?
I'm not saying don't buy the best, if you've got the money and just want it. But if it's something just "nothing fancy", why not one of Trent Austin's "Doublers'" horns.
For me personally, I got one just for using in a community college big band. Very good band, but the band still doesn't require anything fancy. I got a excellent used Jupiter off of ebay and it does the trick very well. I think it cost me something around $600.00 |
I’m sure I probably could do just that. However in the back of my mind I’d always want better and eventually end up buying something else. And no I don’t have to have “the best” but at least I know if I have good equipment then my ability will be the lowest common denominator.
JJ |
Your ability will be the lowest common denominator with any decent flugelhorn in good working condition. There is entirely too much emphasis on equipment. Clark Terry would have sounded great on any decent flugelhorn in good working condition including, but not limited to, the Conn Vintage One and any Adams flugelhorn.
There's no adequate substitute for actually trying out the horn, so that's where I suggest you start. All horns have intonation issues. That's why they have adjustable slides. Different horns will have different sounds and will give you different impressions of their playability but at the end of the day your own ability is the most critical factor.
I agree with others here that the mouthpiece is a very critical factor that can change the sound and impressions of playability significantly. So, unless you try out horns using many different mouthpieces this process, at best, involves a degree of guessing.
Choose a reputable brand/model and you'll be fine for your stated intended purpose.
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5677
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Here are a few thoughts from the fringe.
1.) You don't need a 4 valve flugel unless you are doing orchestral or brass band work, and even then, how much music is actually written in a range that requires the 4th valve? Don't bother looking at them - stick with 3 valve models unless you actually need it. Otherwise, it's additional mechanics that will need to be maintained regardless of how much it's actually used.
2.) How well do you play? If you are still average at best and mostly a practice room player, the truth is that almost any flugel, provided it doesn't actually suck, will be fine. I gig all the time - I play an ACB Doubler, and it gets me where I need to go just fine.
3.) Strongly consider a Yamaha 631. Is it an "amazing" horn? No, but it's very solid, and it's my standard that I compare everything else to. I've used and gigged one at various points in my playing career, and never once thought to myself, "gee - I don't like this instrument." The same can't be said of a 4 valve Getzen Eterna that I was issued at one point in my army music career.
Fourth thought. Unless you plan on playing a lot of flugelhorn, don't buy something expensive unless you've got the expendable cash to throw at it. If you do, by all means, get whatever instrument floats your boat. Otherwise, see points 1-3. I've owned and used "better" instruments than the ACB Doubler, but this horn gets used for the occasional ballad and nothing more. I really can't justify the expense to upgrade to something else at this point. Maybe if it breaks, or maybe if I have a student who could use it, I can sell it to them cheap and then get something else, but otherwise I'm glad I only paid around 5 bills for it.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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giakara
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 3832
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:34 am Post subject: |
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If you are a doubler and play both trumpet and flugel you have to count the very serious oppion of easy change from one horn to other , three type of flugels
Small bore or French type -very good smoky sound but for me very difficult to change to trumpet accept you play a small or medium Bb (not very common to our days) many players love them.
Medium bore horns , not to many actually only one model by Yamaha the 631G the vintage 631/731 and the out of product stunning Lawler flugel , for me those horns are very good players and the doubler choice becose is very easy to change from trumpet to flugel.
Large bore horns , big trombone like sound, needs very good mpc choice to make them work properly, some guys love them too.
As you see in my signature I have a medium horn and I realy like it , the vintage 631/731 are great pro horns and you can find them very cheap , good luck.
Regards
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AwesomeDad
Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | Here are a few thoughts from the fringe.
1.) You don't need a 4 valve flugel unless you are doing orchestral or brass band work, and even then, how much music is actually written in a range that requires the 4th valve? Don't bother looking at them - stick with 3 valve models unless you actually need it. Otherwise, it's additional mechanics that will need to be maintained regardless of how much it's actually used.
2.) How well do you play? If you are still average at best and mostly a practice room player, the truth is that almost any flugel, provided it doesn't actually suck, will be fine. I gig all the time - I play an ACB Doubler, and it gets me where I need to go just fine.
3.) Strongly consider a Yamaha 631. Is it an "amazing" horn? No, but it's very solid, and it's my standard that I compare everything else to. I've used and gigged one at various points in my playing career, and never once thought to myself, "gee - I don't like this instrument." The same can't be said of a 4 valve Getzen Eterna that I was issued at one point in my army music career.
Fourth thought. Unless you plan on playing a lot of flugelhorn, don't buy something expensive unless you've got the expendable cash to throw at it. If you do, by all means, get whatever instrument floats your boat. Otherwise, see points 1-3. I've owned and used "better" instruments than the ACB Doubler, but this horn gets used for the occasional ballad and nothing more. I really can't justify the expense to upgrade to something else at this point. Maybe if it breaks, or maybe if I have a student who could use it, I can sell it to them cheap and then get something else, but otherwise I'm glad I only paid around 5 bills for it. |
All great points. I agree not considering a 4 valve. As for the Yamaha I think it is a great “standard” to judge by however to my ear sounds more on the trumpet side.
I’m probably gonna stay middle of the road budget wise However this will be the first new horn I’ve ever purchased and I’m at the point in my life I’m fortunate enough to be able to get what I want. So I may splurge a little.
Thanks for all the great advice.
JJ |
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maynard-46
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Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 1845
Location: GEORGIA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:14 am Post subject: honest opinion on a flugel |
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Adams F5 all-copper bell...hands down!!!
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:24 am Post subject: Re: honest opinion on a flugel |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | Adams F5 all-copper bell...hands down!!!
Butch |
You’re not helping Butch. If I recall I own a trumpet because of you 😂😂😂
JJ |
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jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 427
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I don't think I saw the answer to how the choices got narrowed to these two. Knowing that would help us try to answer the original question.
-John
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| jengstrom wrote: | I don't think I saw the answer to how the choices got narrowed to these two. Knowing that would help us try to answer the original question.
-John |
Initially I started with the most popular models in my price range. Then a lot of listening, talking to owners etc. finally I’m setting up a play test of the 2-3 models on my list. Ideally I would play as many as humanly possible but that would involve an extensive road trip due to the lack of options in my area.
JJ |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| AwesomeDad wrote: | | jengstrom wrote: | I don't think I saw the answer to how the choices got narrowed to these two. Knowing that would help us try to answer the original question.
-John |
Initially I started with the most popular models in my price range. Then a lot of listening, talking to owners etc. finally I’m setting up a play test of the 2-3 models on my list. Ideally I would play as many as humanly possible but that would involve an extensive road trip due to the lack of options in my area.
JJ |
Makes sense - atleast from 2 or 3 you should get some idea of which of them you like best (or whether none feel quite right)... as you say, ideally more would be good.
Which flugels are you interested in (on the list)? |
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AwesomeDad
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Joined: 22 Aug 2017
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | AwesomeDad wrote: | | jengstrom wrote: | I don't think I saw the answer to how the choices got narrowed to these two. Knowing that would help us try to answer the original question.
-John |
Initially I started with the most popular models in my price range. Then a lot of listening, talking to owners etc. finally I’m setting up a play test of the 2-3 models on my list. Ideally I would play as many as humanly possible but that would involve an extensive road trip due to the lack of options in my area.
JJ |
Makes sense - atleast from 2 or 3 you should get some idea of which of them you like best (or whether none feel quite right).
Which flugels are you interested in (on the list)? |
In no particular order and yes I’m aware there are several more equally as good or better.
Conn Vintage One
Adams F5
Getzen 4895
Possibly a Kanstul 1525 |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| AwesomeDad wrote: |
In no particular order and yes I’m aware there are several more equally as good or better.
Conn Vintage One
Adams F5
Getzen 4895
Possibly a Kanstul 1525 |
An interesting set, and all good horns...
Definitely add a Yamaha to the list, shouldn't be too hard to find a 631 (a great horn).
I might get some disagreement on this one, but I'd definitely put the Bach Strad 183 on the list too - Jazz cats seem not to be so fond of them, but they're very popular with the top brass band guys (in my experience, they're the majority championship section bands in the UK)... they might not be for everyone, but they're really good horns and definitely worth trying.
(I'd love to say "add an Eclipse to the list", but the odds of finding one locally to try are probably fairly slim) |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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If you try the Adams F1 you're going to like it. A lot. It's very lightweight, very nimble, has short throw valves and can be had in a variety of metal configurations including the nickel silver flare (which gives the sound a little more clarity).
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