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Besson Brevette 10-10



 
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:23 am    Post subject: Besson Brevette 10-10 Reply with quote

Would appreciate any info and rough estimate about an old Besson Brevete 10-10 that a friend is offering to sell me. On the bell it has the name, and says “made in England”, but also shows “London, Paris, New York” written in a row. Also says “50 medals of honor.” It uses the old Olds side style (like on Supers) water key on the main tuning slide. There are triggers on the third And the first slides. The second slide is forward facing (unlike back facing on modern horns). There is a fairly large star up the bell, above the writing and most stenciling. There is some type emblem below the star. 10-10 is also on the bell. I do not see a serial number. With the lacquer off you can see see the seam of the one piece bell. Almost all lacquer is missing. Water key corks need replacing, otherwise it plays fine. No dents or dings. Mouthpipe looks to be very, very slightly bent down (not really noticeable) from leadpipe.

Any idea of when this was made?
Was this a pro horn?
Is this considered a valuable Besson (know Besson has a long complicated history of various makers)?
Can someone give me a very rough idea of what price to offer for horn, provided it is worth collecting?
Any information you can share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I have a pictures of it but not sure how to post on this site.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1948, the English Besson company (as distinct from the more famous Fontaine-Besson firm in France) was acquired by Boosey & Hawkes, which set about repurposing the rather stagnant Besson name in the UK as a better student line to compete with the American giant CG Conn, which was making inroads there. The 10-10 models are among the many new products introduced as part of this, and were built throughout the 50s and 60s.

They are on par with Olds Ambassador, Holton Collegiate and Martin Indiana horns of the same time frame - and price accordingly.
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Wow. I’m surprised to hear that they were student line in leu of the triggers on the horn and Super water key. You have me wondering if I want to pursue a purchase. Was hoping it might be older than your dates (my guess had been 40s). and more in the pro line. Thanks for the info.
Steve
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robbrand
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
In 1948, the English Besson company (as distinct from the more famous Fontaine-Besson firm in France) was acquired by Boosey & Hawkes, which set about repurposing the rather stagnant Besson name in the UK as a better student line to compete with the American giant CG Conn, which was making inroads there. The 10-10 models are among the many new products introduced as part of this, and were built throughout the 50s and 60s.

They are on par with Olds Ambassador, Holton Collegiate and Martin Indiana horns of the same time frame - and price accordingly.


No, that is not correct. The Besson 10-10 was a fully professional model, one of the best Besson/B&H trumpets ever made. Altogether on a different level to the Ambassador, Collegiate or Indiana. Read about your horn here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090117185114/http://www.horn-u-copia.net/books/Besson%201958.pdf
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I will agree that the 1958 catalog (now removed from horn-u-copia I see) deemed them pro horns. Agreeing with that marketing (and we all remember the "Ambassadors are produced with the same tools to the same specifications" spiel from Olds for student horns) however, is a matter of opinion I do not share. Compared to a Paris Besson, their tone is lifeless and their response a bit brick-like (just like the bulk of Conn's brasses at the time - yes, excluding the 38B/36B/8B)

I will grant you that Byron Autrey did procure 10-10 and 2-20 bells to extend his study of Besson bell making. I am not aware of anyone, him included, deciding to use that information to imitate those in any way.

eBay pricing for these models has been, as I indicated, inline with Indiana and Ambassador (the Collegiates can be had a tad cheaper but only due to supply)
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robbrand
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I suppose I will agree that the 1958 catalog (now removed from horn-u-copia I see) deemed them pro horns. Agreeing with that marketing (and we all remember the "Ambassadors are produced with the same tools to the same specifications" spiel from Olds for student horns) however, is a matter of opinion I do not share. Compared to a Paris Besson, their tone is lifeless and their response a bit brick-like (just like the bulk of Conn's brasses at the time - yes, excluding the 38B/36B/8B)

I will grant you that Byron Autrey did procure 10-10 and 2-20 bells to extend his study of Besson bell making. I am not aware of anyone, him included, deciding to use that information to imitate those in any way.

eBay pricing for these models has been, as I indicated, inline with Indiana and Ambassador (the Collegiates can be had a tad cheaper but only due to supply)


You must have played many of those instruments because you seem to have a deep knowledge of their qualities! I’ve only played two B&H horns - the one a Regent which was a pretty good student/intermediate one, and the other a 1950s vintage Imperial (which happens to be identical to the Besson 10-10, and was B&H’s top pro horn at the time, and which I still own. Its not bad for a 70-year instrument! You’re right, they don’t sell for anything near what they should be worth. I’ll have one of them any day rather than an Ambassador or Collegiate.)
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Gabrieli
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was bought a new Besson 10 10 by my parents ca. 1965. They were considered professional models and were I think well made but the medium bore was somewhat restricting compared to american instruments. Do not forget that Britisch orchestras were often playing smaller bore tenor trombones, G bass trombone and smallish f tuba until around 1960. In that context they were good professional instruments. when I started studying in 1968 I changed to an Olds Super, which I found much superior.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gabrieli wrote:
I was bought a new Besson 10 10 by my parents ca. 1965. They were considered professional models and were I think well made but the medium bore was somewhat restricting compared to american instruments.

It's possible you found the 10-10 restricting - I haven't played mine for a while - but they were ML .460 bore - essentially the same as Bach (.459) and Benge (.460). I don't remember if ML Yamahas are .459 or .460
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All other considerations aside, there is always one over-riding rule in instruments: if it works for you, it doesn't matter what it is, or its reputation, or its price. Everyone is different and when you find what works, there is nothing better.
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stumac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The serial no on my 10-10 is very lightly stamped on the underside of the bell throat opposite the valve block, mine is 302xxx, rescued from a dumpster at a school very beaten up, bell folded back on itself half way down the flair and tail crushed numerous other dents.

On effecting repairs getting into playing condition has one of the easiest high register of all my horns. Currently waiting for me to make a set of valve guides in brass, robbed the plastic ones to fix a friends Besson New Creation.

Regards, Stuart.
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krax
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 10-10 I've played was a top professional horn, very well made, great attention to detail and it really had a lovely sound. Comparing it to an Olds Ambassador and other student trumpets, that is an insult.

The intermediate 8-10 I've played was not as good, but it was still a really good trumpet.

The student 2-20s I've played were all better than any Olds Ambassador I've played, but here we talk about preferences. I like horns with open slotting and the Besson bell with its open bell throat requires a bit more of work with intonation, but oh what a sound it can make! A relief among all those other student trumpets with their dead, boring tone.

I can't have had the best Besson trumpets ever made and only dog Olds trumpets. That catalogue is right on the spot.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, is this a trumpet, or a cornet? I've never played a 10-10 trumpet, but the 10-10 cornets are very nice instruments.
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale,

Not sure. Looks like a trumped. If you will pm me your email, I’ll send you a picture of it.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevericks wrote:
Dale,

Not sure. Looks like a trumped. If you will pm me your email, I’ll send you a picture of it.


Steve, I'm sure if you think it's a trumpet, then it's a trumpet. I was just wondering, since the post didn't reference which it was.
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